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Looking for a used Twike in the USA
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Written on: 26 March 2010 [22:41]
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iamian
 
registered since: 23.02.2009
Posts: 110
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The hill is steep! Sorry , that's too vague to be useful. If you go to a site like this one: http://www.heywhatsthat.com/profiler.html You can set two points one at the bottom of the hill in question and one at the top... that will then give you a clear idea of how steep that hill is and for how long... it will look something like this: 5 minutes of driving at 25mph, only two stop signs and a few speed bumps. That is for the hill correct? 5 minutes at ~25 MPH means it is ~2.08 mile long hill. That's the distance... Now how steep is it in that ~2 Miles? what is the change in elevation? Or What is the angle of the incline? I'm pretty good with electricity, wiring, batteries. I need to learn all technicals, though. Good ... take your time double check everything as you go ... electricity won't give you any warning. RE & Efficiency enthusiast
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Written on: 01 April 2010 [09:45]
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needatwike
 Topic creator
registered since: 17.03.2010
Posts: 12
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Oh wow, that was an incredibly useful website. What I did was plot my trip to the grocery store. 2.5 miles, highest elevation about 850 ft. I am going with the 20 mile range twike active. The owner said it currently charges up the 400 pack with 387 volts. (batteries are only a few years old Nicad I believe) |
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Written on: 02 April 2010 [03:33]
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iamian
registered since: 23.02.2009
Posts: 110
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Thanks for the additional Data. Now based on the information at hand... I would give a gross estimate of the reserve energy you want to have for that hill at the end of your ride to be in the range of: At least 600 Wh up to about 1,000 Wh as a usable reserve. At ~386 V that means you might want to keep about ~2.6 Ah of usable battery capacity for that last hill. Keep in mind rated capacity is not the same as usable capacity. Also keep in mind that this is just an estimate ... there are still allot of factors, such as wind, temp, rate of acceleration, etc...etc... that can influence things +/- Also keep in mind ... miles are a measure of distance , and not particularly useful in terms of quantifying batteries ... different conditions will use different amounts of energy Wh for the same distance in miles... for instance the same number of miles ~2.5 going down that hill in the morning will use next to nothing in terms of battery power energy ( Wh ) ... while the same ~2.5 Miles going up hill will use significant amounts of energy. Do you have a RC battery pack cycle analyzer? One that can count Ah charged and Ah discharged to and from a Battery pack? It doesn't have to be able to do the whole ~400V Twike pack all at once... I am thinking more in terms of trying to quantify the health of the battery pack chain ... it is only as strong as the weakest link ( weakest cell ) in the pack ... so testing smaller parts of the pack at a time can provide useful information... the most useful will be the usable Ah or Wh during discharge. RE & Efficiency enthusiast
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Written on: 02 April 2010 [06:08]
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needatwike
Topic creator
registered since: 17.03.2010
Posts: 12
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Thanks so much. I'm not exactly sure all the energy read outs a 1998 Twike comes with. I only have experience with a Lion Twike we rented this summer. I'm also lacking in knowledge on kilowatt hour / volt / ampere hour despite just reading the wikipedia for each page. I don't own the ah meter, but found a few online for under $50 so I'll definitely look into one of those as I get familiar with the Twike. I've been following this blogger http://twikepdx.blogspot.com/ and he's extremely more advanced than I am !!! I hope I can manage. |
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Written on: 03 April 2010 [00:58]
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iamian
registered since: 23.02.2009
Posts: 110
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If you take your time and are willing to learn ... you'll do fine. Watt Hours ( Wh ) ... is a term of energy ... this is ultimately what you want to know. Remember what I said about batteries are not rated in miles... because in your case and this hill ... it is the same distance to go down as it is to go up ... but it is pretty easy to understand that it takes much more energy to go up than it does to go down. Now most batteries are not rated in Wh either... they are often rated in: ( nominal ) Volts & Ah ( Amp Hours ) @ a 20 hour discharge rate. Wh = Volts x Ah Nominal Volts is the average voltage during discharge from 100% SoC ( State of Charge ) to 0% SoC... the instant Voltage will vary over the discharge curve... and vary based on what the instantaneous Amps of current drawl are ... and what the temperature of the battery pack is.... basically a NiMH battery cell might start at ~1.4V when fully charged ( 100% SoC ) ... and might be ~0.9 V when discharged (~0% SoC )... but the average or ( Nominal ) Voltage a NiMH battery is rated at is 1.2 V. Ah is the cumulative count of the flow of electrical current over a period of time. The harder you discharge a battery ... as in faster , hot, or cold, etc... the less Ah you will get as usable from it. This is what we would expect... the battery is a chemical reaction and like cooking a turkey or hamburgers ... if you try to cook them faster and faster... you end up getting less usable turkey or hamburgers out... the same result happens with any battery ... the faster you discharge it the less you will get from it. I wrote about the above because a battery that was rated at say 20Ah at a 20 Hour rate ... will give you significantly less than 20Ah if you discharge it in 1 hour... even if the battery is 100% safe and capable of being discharged in 1 hour or less. - - - - - Not sure about all models ... But I think most models of Twike have some type of energy / battery SoC display ... to give you an idea of how much you have left. - - - - - Best of luck , and if you have any questions about something feel free to ask ... I am happy to help ... but I do not own a Twike myself... Just a fan of the concept. RE & Efficiency enthusiast
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Written on: 01 May 2010 [18:34]
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pokersteve
registered since: 01.05.2010
Posts: 2
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Hi there I am very new to this forum, in fact I have just joined today, I am also very new to the concept of electric vehicles, specifically the Twike. Could anyone answer a few questions for me please ?. #1 I am interested in obtaining a secondhand Twike, (I seriously doubt I could afford a new one), however I am being swamped with conflicting reports regarding the various legislations for the use and driving of such a vehicle. Obviously I have no wish to fall foul of any traffic regulations and incur the wrath of the people who #1 have a marked prediliction for dressing in Blue #2 driving cars with flashing lights on top, and #3 also have a tendancy to be a lot bigger than me. Therefore I would be extremely grateful if anyone could give me pointers as to where, and what to look for regarding any such legislation. Prefereably printed in plain language that can be easily understood by someone who soes NOT have a degree in Law (or latin). What license (if any) would I need ?. Cost of said license ?. Availablilty of and cost of, any other legal documents I may need ?. Availability, and cost of a used Twike. A ball park figure will do for this, just so I will know if a seller (if found) is not trying to rip me off. Any other information you can think of that might be useful to me in my search. Apologies in advance for asking so many questions, but I figured it's better to ask 'em all at once than spend time asking 'em one at a time, I really hope you folks can help a poor very confused guy out here. [This article was edited 2 times, at last 01.05.2010 at 18:37.] |
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Written on: 02 May 2010 [13:55]
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ecoadmin
Administrator
registered since: 20.07.2007
Posts: 583
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Hi de hoh pokersteve and welcome to the forums  #1 Getting a Twike in the US Unfortunately this is not as easy as it would be on the old continent (EU). But not all hope is lost. I am sure if you are presistent enough you will eventually be able the joy of driving a TWIKE. There are several possibilities you should consider: a) getting one from an owner in the US, that is willing to sell. b) getting a second hand TWIKE in Europe and then import it c) getting a new one, at the moment deliveries are relatively fast Legal aspects This very likely depends on the state you are living in. But a good start is a members website: http://web.mac.com/mattchildress/Twike/Legal_Issues.html Another US Twike owner is here: http://twikepdx.blogspot.com/ I am sure both would be willing to help you answering questions. Costs of a Twike Have a look at the prices of used Twikes on the Twikeklub Website: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.twikeklub.ch/index.asp (browse to 'used vehicles'). For a 10 year old roadworthy Twike without batt's or old ones, USD 10'000 would be an acceptable price. Depends on the general condition as well though.. Hope this info helps for a start, let me know how your search is going or if you have more questions. Cheers, Stefan TW890 Twike 890
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Written on: 02 May 2010 [14:09]
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iamian
registered since: 23.02.2009
Posts: 110
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The only thing I would add to the above is this. Remember most people ... especially those at the DMV ... have never seen or heard of or had to deal with any electric car / vehicle ... even fewer have ever seen or even heard of the Twike or vehicles like it. So be prepared to be patient ... and understanding ... of people not knowing what to do ... even if it is their job ... and they don't want to get in trouble either ... so they will be more likely to error on the side of caution. They don't mean ill ... it is just a rare enough vehicle that it is out side the realm of experience of most people. So take your time have patients and you'll do fine.  RE & Efficiency enthusiast
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Written on: 03 May 2010 [01:25]
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needatwike
Topic creator
registered since: 17.03.2010
Posts: 12
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Well I took the plunge and purchased a 1998 Twike. The batteries are supposedly newer, but I'm assuming next to worthless. Will need all the help from anyone who can point me in the right direction for getting them tested, and possibly fixed if there are bad ones in the pack? Mine cost 12k, which is 2k over what I wanted to pay. Shipping from across the country was another $558. It hasn't gotten here, yet, but its half way and expected to arrive in a week or two. I'll have to tow it up my hill because the transport can't make it up here and I'm guess it'll be dead as a doornail from 2 weeks+ in transit. I know someone in San Diego drives one so the CA DMV should be somewhat prepared. I got insurance via Geico, but my All State agent is working on getting approval, too for me. I still have to take the title down to the DMV and get plates, but was waiting until the Twike actually arrived. I'm excited, but also wary due to the potential expense of buying a new battery pack and help with any reconditioning. I'm going to make business cards and a blog so just incase I get too much attention from driving it I can just had out cards and save my breath |
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Written on: 03 May 2010 [23:30]
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iamian
registered since: 23.02.2009
Posts: 110
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I am a bit of a battery hobbiest... and I have worked with batteries from small power tools all the way up to the high Voltage Hybird battery packs. I'd be happy to offer some advise here and there ... While I am a fan of the Twike Concept ... I do not have one yet myself ... so I can help with the batteries themselves ... but I don't know enough about the workings of the Twike itself to be able to trouble shoot much of its electronics and things like that... plus I live in RI ... so I'm a bit to far away from you to swing by in person... although you might also be able to get some help from people in your local EV group... even if they don't know much about the Twike in particular, they usually have a few people who know a fair amount about batteries, motors, etc... and of course your fellow Twike owners are also a valuable resource. The first question about testing the Twike's battery pack ... is on a scale from 1 to 10 .... 1 being takes the most time but is the most thorough ... to 10 being the fastest but being the least thorough ... how much time / effort do you want to invest in testing / working with the battery pack? The main things we will want to know are: #1> Capacity: How many Wh or Ah can we discharge from the battery pack... keeping in mind that it is only as strong as it's weakest link ... so if possible identifying weaker cells can be useful. #2> Internal Impedance: Cells with high internal Impedance ( resistance ) are early indications of a failing cell ... they also contribute to excessive battery heat build up during use... this also gives you an indication of voltage sag , and how much cranking power you can get for individual bursts of power & acceleration. #3> Self Discharge Rate: As long as you are charging it up every couple days ... the only thing we need to know here is that the cells should all be reasonably close to each other , whatever they are ... it can help in the long run with battery pack balancing , battery reconditioning , and battery wear and tear if they are all self discharging at similar rates ... but I easily put this low on the list ... #1 & #2 being by far the most important things you will want to know. - - - - - - There are tons of other things you could test for ... Peukert k values , thermal performance curves , etc... but #1 & #2 by far would be at the top of my list... and thankfully #1 and #2 are reasonably easy to test for as well... given enough time, and patients. RE & Efficiency enthusiast
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