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Volt energy use in Highway Driving
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Written on: 01 December 2008 [20:32]
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ecoadmin
Administrator
Topic creator
registered since: 20.07.2007
Posts: 504
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GM vice chairman Bob Lutz about the driving experience with one of the lates Volt mules: “We started with about a 60-percent charge on the battery pack, to see how it would perform and when the engine would kick on,” and “to my delight, we went about 19 silent, electrically powered miles before that engine engaged.” The Volt mules use a Chevy Cruze shell. But what was it he meant with this 60-percent charge? "When you said the car was at 60% charge when you started did you mean 60% State of Charge or 60% of the way from depletion (30%) to 80% SOC? Mr. Lutz’ reply: “It was 60% of the 80% max-30% min band. That’s why I was so delighted that it went over 20 miles in cold weather and at 65 mph or more, steady-state! ” That means the car used about 5kWh to go the 20 miles. To do 60 miles resp. 100km the car would consume about 15kWh. This consumption relates to driving at constant speed, so I would guess in mixed conditions it would be around 25kWh which is the equivalent of about 2.5lt of gasoline resp. 90mpg. Let the discussion begin... ecocarforum.com - Green Car Network
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Written on: 10 December 2008 [23:56]
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Yardonn
 
registered since: 22.08.2007
Posts: 156
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If you calculate with a 33% efficency of a fuel engine, then 25 kWh are equal to 7.5 liters fuel consuption. Nothing special. Not really a "electricity Guzzler", but efficency looks different. No real way to travel enviromental-friendly (thinking of the problem to produce so much eletric energy...) Alleweder 4
http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car |
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Written on: 14 December 2008 [19:28]
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ecoadmin
Administrator
Topic creator
registered since: 20.07.2007
Posts: 504
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Hmm...I do not see why 25kWh should be the equivalent of 7.5 liters of fuel... Your calculated value of 7.5 lt makes only sense in case the Volt is run on gasoline. The Volt is an electric vehicle with range extender and uses in my calculation 25kWh in electric only mode. Thats the energy equivalent of approx. 2,5 lts gasoline. See also: http://xprizecars.com/2008/04/batteries-power-energy-and-uni.php That means as long as the Volt is driven in electric only mode, it consumes about 2.5lt of gasoline resp. 90mpg. If the Volt would be run on gasoline only, that value would of course be higher. Assuming the electric version is 100% efficient compared to the 33% of your gasoline engine, the consumption rise to 7.5lt/100km resp. 31mpg. Luckily this is not the case...  ecocarforum.com - Green Car Network
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Written on: 02 August 2009 [07:00]
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pacman77
registered since: 01.08.2009
Posts: 1
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The Chevy Volt is hopefully going to be my choice of hybrid car I am determined to own a hybrid I am researching all models these threads were a bit complicated but it gives me a idea of peoples views of the Volt. |
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Written on: 04 August 2009 [00:34]
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Yardonn
registered since: 22.08.2007
Posts: 156
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ecoadmin wrote: Hmm...I do not see why 25kWh should be the equivalent of 7.5 liters of fuel... The point is, that i look at the vehicle and its powersource. Electric motors are highly efficient by themselfs, this is nothing GM has developed. And if a car with a highly efficient Motor usese that much energy, you have to question weather it is a good car, or only a bad car with a good motor. So i recalculated with removing the effect of the higly efficient e-motor. So i get 7.5 liters for a Volt powered with a gasoline engine. Comparing this to other cars, you can see clearly, that it ist much greener to convert other cars with lower gasoline need into E-cars (resulting in less kWh needed...) than "burning" so much energy in the Volt. 25 kWh is just much to much, this will result in to less range or to high cost for batteries... Compared to the 6 kWh a loremo shall need, it is much too much for a modern E-car. Alleweder 4
http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car |
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Written on: 31 October 2009 [16:57]
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sroseme
registered since: 28.10.2009
Posts: 4
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I still just don't get it.if I bought a Volt plug-in, charged it every night and drove it 1000 miles a month (33+/- a day)-how much higher would my electric bill be if I pay 10 cents per kwh? Driving my Prius 1000 miles costs me $25 (at a conservative 40mpg). Isn't there some way to do an apples to apples comparison? And what if I bought a "standard" (ie not the Tesla)electric car).Would the cost be different than the Volt?- Sharon |
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Written on: 01 November 2009 [03:01]
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iamian
 
registered since: 23.02.2009
Posts: 105
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sroseme wrote: I still just don't get it.if I bought a Volt plug-in, charged it every night and drove it 1000 miles a month (33+/- a day)-how much higher would my electric bill be if I pay 10 cents per kwh? Driving my Prius 1000 miles costs me $25 (at a conservative 40mpg). Isn't there some way to do an apples to apples comparison? And what if I bought a "standard" (ie not the Tesla)electric car).Would the cost be different than the Volt?- Sharon There will never be a 100% 1 to 1 comparison ... there are too many differences between EVs and ICE vehicles... The best you will ever see is the equivalent of a crab apple to a granny smith apple type of comparison... and you still will not be comparing equal things. The point brought up above is the Volt is still not very energy efficient use of energy weather it is gasoline or electrical power... it is just not designed to be an energy efficient vehicle ... it is designed to give a fueling alternative that might be greener or cheaper depending on its source... so for the miles you plug in your volt it might be cheaper or greener than a HEV Prius ... but that doesn't make it efficient use of energy for transportation. Energy consumption difference ... if the vehicle was getting ~5 kwh per ~20 Miles in EV mode where the electric motor is 90+% efficient ... in order to move the same vehicle the same speed and distance would require 3x as much gasoline energy input for the average only ~30% efficient ICE gasoline vehicle... or ~15 kwh worth of gasoline to go the same ~20 miles... this puts the Volt in charge sustaining gasoline mode to be in the low to mid 30's for MPG... the vehicle design just wastes allot of energy per mile... The Volt will advertise higher MPG number with use of the electric EV mode in order to disguise its energy needs... and depending on the source and cost of your electrical power it might be cheaper or greener than a HEV. The volt design of keeping the gasoline engine running at its peak efficiency helps it get above the average ~30% efficiency... but the generator method introduces other energy losses to reduce the over all vehicle net efficiency... As an example... starting with 10 kWh of gasoline input energy. Even a 50% efficient ICE only outputs 5kWh into usable mechanical energy ... even a 95% efficient generator will only output ~4.75 kwh of electrical energy ... even 95% battery control / generator control electronics will only output ~4.51 kWh... even Batteries that have a cycle efficiency of ~95% would output ~4.28 kWh of electrical energy back... even the ~95% efficient motor controller would only output ~4.06 kWh of electrical power to the electric motor... even a ~95% efficient electrical motor will only output ~3.86 kWh worth of mechanical move the car energy... In a nut shell in sustaining mode the volt will be lucky to see 40% net efficiency from the gasoline energy you put in. A gasoline powered co-generation power plant can boost that initial conversion efficiency from gasoline chemical energy to electrical power even with transmission losses to your house the large scale centrally located power plant will give you more net efficiency than the mobile generator option will. Now if the Volt were built for efficiency it would be a very very different vehicle ... but ... at least it will give people a fueling option. For your comparison... The Volt at ~$25 per month in electrical costs... compared to 40 MPG HEV ( even though you can do much better ) at an average of $4 per gallon ... or ~$100 a month Compared to some DIY efficient EV conversions: That get in the ~6 mile per kwh range. or ~$17 a month in electricity. Compared to a Aptera at ~8 miles per kwh it would cost about ~$12 per month in electricity. or compared to a Twike which uses less energy per mile than the Aptera ... or compared to a Aerorider or GoOne which use less energy per mile than a Twike per mile. 2000 MT Honda Insight
MIMA & FAS equipped ... PHEV in progress. Franken E-Bike 36V NiMH 600W Hub-Motor. |
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Written on: 01 November 2009 [17:05]
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sroseme
registered since: 28.10.2009
Posts: 4
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Thanks, but ouch. That's more info than I need, but I get the gist. Let me try asking another way. i am considering a solar system. If I buy a plug in Volt or (hopefully) Prius (making reasonable assumptions re range and efficiency), how many kwh should I allow for charging the car-assuming I drive 1,000 miles a month? The # I've seen thrown around is 3kwh per mile. Is that anywhere in the right range? |
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Written on: 01 November 2009 [18:43]
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iamian
registered since: 23.02.2009
Posts: 105
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sroseme wrote: Thanks, but ouch. That's more info than I need, but I get the gist. Let me try asking another way. i am considering a solar system. If I buy a plug in Volt or (hopefully) Prius (making reasonable assumptions re range and efficiency), how many kwh should I allow for charging the car-assuming I drive 1,000 miles a month? The # I've seen thrown around is 3kwh per mile. Is that anywhere in the right range? Sorry being concise is not one of my strengths. It depends on what kind of 'reasonable' assumptions you make... for the car and the solar system. Without knowing more specifics ... I can only give you ranges. Based on the limited information of a Volt or PHEV-Prius and 1,000 Miles ... I would only feel comfortable narrowing a range down to as little as 1 kw rated solar system up to at most a 6 kw rated solar system to meet that transportation desires. If you are willing to share more information like where in the country the system will be getting installed and what kind of solar power system you are looking at I might be able to narrow that down more... if you are willing to share additional details about your driving I might be able to narrow that down a bit more to. But without additional details I would only say I expect you to need something in that range of 1 to 6 kw rated solar system. More efficient vehicles like a Aptera would need about 1/2 the energy or a range of 0.5kw to 3 kw rated solar system... a Twike less than that ... etc... Also keep in mind energy usage naturally varies just like your MPG varies based on time of year, weather, driver attitude , traffic, etc. 2000 MT Honda Insight
MIMA & FAS equipped ... PHEV in progress. Franken E-Bike 36V NiMH 600W Hub-Motor. |
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Written on: 01 November 2009 [19:06]
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Yardonn
registered since: 22.08.2007
Posts: 156
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Never saw any figures for the energy uses by a plug in prius... I know some cars that are around 20 kWh / 60 miles => 0,33 kWh per Mile. Volt may have 25 kWh / 60 miles => 0,42 kWh per mile Solarsystems: all values for a system in Germany pointing south as 35° Amgle , figure may vary depending on location. Solarpanels: Thinlayer - 83 Wp per square meter (Watt Peak - maximum power unter perfect circumstances!) Average Energy collected (prediction): 72,66 kWh per year and square meter -> ~6 kWh per month -> 14,4 miles in a Volt. => for 1000 miles a month wiht a Volt you need ~ 70 m^2 solar panels. Now compare Vehicles: Volt(25 kWh/60 miles): ~ 70 m^2 solar panels. Citroen eletrique (20 kWh/60 miles): ~ 55,5 m^2 solar panels. Twike (6 kWh/60 miles): ~ 16,6 m^2 solar panels. CityEl (4 kWh/60 miles): ~ 11,1 m^2 solar panels. Alleweder (1 kWh/60 miles): ~ 2,8 m^2 solar panels. But to be honest, it makes not much sense, to have a direct relation between your solar system and your E-Car. In the summer you generate the majority of your energy, while needing more energy for transportaion in the winter due to bad roac conditions and heating of the car. So in fact you will be charging from the electric grid and selling your clean energy to the grid. And there is the point: Buy a solar system and start producing clean enery. It is a very good thing for the enviroment. And buy yourself a car, that uses very little Energy. It is not so much a point of buying electric or fuel burner, it is a question of MPG or miles per kWh. Solarsystem and Car have no direct connetion, these are two independent decisions with independent consequences für your carbon footprint. I am planing a 40 m^2 solar System (3.36 kWp) and a 2 kWp Windenery-system. Together with a Alleweder for transportation and a new buid highly efficient house i might be able to reach a positive carcon foodprint considering direct emmisions. But using a regular car, or even an regular electric car, this would require much more production of regenerativ Energy than i can affort to buy. It is even getting worse, then i consider the inderect emmisions, for example transportation and production emmisions for the things i buy.... Going green is much more than only compansating for your car. [This article was edited 2 times, at last 01.11.2009 at 19:07.] Alleweder 4
http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car |
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