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What do you want in the perfect EV?
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Written on: 23 July 2009 [12:05]
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a2b.sustainably
 Topic creator
registered since: 23.07.2009
Posts: 10
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What is your idea of the perfect EV? EVs are great. Even better when charged with renewable purchased from commercial wind turbines (I'm doing it now for my home). Better still when EEStor's EESU supercapacitors come on-line...or something equivalent from someone else giving fast charge times and massive range. But what about the environmental impact of: -Insanely heavy steel cars? -Or hard to recycle bonded aluminum chassis in the Tesla? (How do you get the thermoset resins off of the Aluminum in an environmentally friendly way?) -Or non-recyclable fibreglass in the Aptera? -Or eco-disastrous energy intensive automotive paint (40-70% of a vehicles embodied energy by many reports)? -Or box style cars that gorge themselves on energy at highway speeds?  Would someone please make an electric car that is: 1. A little sporty so that it is nice to look at and be seen in (please!) 2. Low drag for highway commuting and road trips 3. Light weight, but crash worthy 4. Low emboddied energy during manufacture 5. Easily recycled or reclaimed at the end of its useful life 6. Seats 2 adults and 2 kids (or 3 adults) 7. Some alternative to automotive paint Acceleration should be good and city driving should be efficient since it is an EV. What more would you ask for? Why is this such an impossible task? Who else out there wants something like this? Am I alone? |
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Written on: 27 July 2009 [14:13]
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Yardonn
 
registered since: 22.08.2007
Posts: 160
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Sorry, but what are you dreaming of? You want to have everything (speed, acceleration, good looking, 4-seater, crash-safty, lightweight and low production-Energy). Did you think oft that some things you wand to have are contrary? Yes, people always wand to have everything, but are not willing to pay the price or make compromise. To answer your question: What you wand ist for now (and long time) impossible. Not even a tesla ist realy enviromental fiendly, with so much "unnececary" things build in, to make it sportive. As Close as you can get is the Aptera or the german www.loremo.com. To realy help the enviroment, you have to size down, no mater what transportation conzept you use. Alleweder 4
http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car |
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Written on: 29 July 2009 [10:15]
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a2b.sustainably
Topic creator
registered since: 23.07.2009
Posts: 10
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Yardonn, So, you agree that such a car would be a “dream come true” if it were possible and affordable? The loremo, aptera, and lumeneo are all a step in the right direction. I'm asking about the next step. Is there anything else you would want? |
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Written on: 29 July 2009 [10:58]
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Yardonn
registered since: 22.08.2007
Posts: 160
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I don't wand to dream, i wand to drive. I am tierd of glorious plans and wonderful promisses. I just care for cars i can actually buy. Now. Not tommorow. A good car transports the nessecary weight and volume efficiently from point A to point B. How much weight and volume can not be answered generaly. We don't need a perfect car right from the start, we need cars actually on the road and then evolution. Yes, i admit: I wand to go 500 milles without recharge, to speed above 100 mph. With room 5 persons and luggage. Purely electric with very little electricity. Nice dream. In reallity i go a little more than 30 mph, one person an approx. 100l luggage with less than 100 miles range. That is tecnical and econimical achivable today. And it is greeen, because it is reducing polution today, not some time later. Alleweder 4
http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car |
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Written on: 29 July 2009 [23:04]
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iamian
 
registered since: 23.02.2009
Posts: 110
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I agree with Yardonn... Down sizing has much more potential... and no matter the vehicle down sizing continues to be a benefit ... eventually downsizing will always catch up with and pass-up vehicle options to become the better option for reducing costs. 31 MPG over a 3 Mile Commute will use less gasoline than 300 MPG over a 30 Mile Commute... of course if you can combine the two it is even better to get 300MPG over a 3 mile commute. To me, anything with more than 2 seats is a waste of space, weight , materials, cost, etc. 90% of the time a 1 seater will do fine for me... of the remaining 10% ... 90% of that a 2 seater will do fine... maybe only ~1% of the time would I ever have any use at all for more than a 2 seats ... Thus anything larger than 2 seats ... is 1 strike against that vehicle as far as I am concerned... it is not a benefit ... it is a negative / bad thing ... more energy to make the larger vehicle ... more materials ... more weight to move ... more rolling resistance ... larger vehicle tend to have worse aerodynamics ... etc. etc. I don't own a U-hual because it don't use such a vehicle often enough to justify the cost to buy and operate it ... in $cost and for the environmental costs. My ultimate vehicle is the one that meets my needs the majority of time ... the greener it is the better ... the less it costs me to buy and operate the better. But the vehicle itself is only part of that equation ... If I can relocate to commute 1/2 the distance ... that is the better choice , unless a vehicle costs less than the cost of relocating and that new vehicle is twice as green and cost effective... even if one then has this twice as green car ... the option to commute 1/2 the distance still offers that benefit... in order to continue to justify not downsizing would require the vehicle to continue to get greener and greener ... eventually the vehicle is as green as it can be ... You'd be driving a highly efficient EV something like an Aptera, Twike , etc ... charged by Solar panels ... and at that point there isn't a significant way to improve the costs $ or greeness of the vehicle enough anymore ... and the better option becomes to then relocate and down size and continue to use this much greener vehicle over much less travel. This ultimately will lead me to some type of year round bicycle like vehicle ... depending on my needs maybe something Twike like ... or if my needs can be down sized enough ... it would be greener yet to be in something like an advanced Velomobile ... similar to an Aerodyder or Go-One like vehicle. That's just my 2 bits. Additionally Downsizing further helps that vehicle too... by downsizing you need less batteries ... so it costs less to buy ... costs less to operate ... the more you can down size the more the vehicle itself can also be down sized... if you only need ~50 Mile Range ~90% of the time ... a 100 Mile Range battery pack is a waste of $ to buy ... waste of weight to carry around ... waste of materials to sit there going unused....etc... I also have no need for fast charging... and the increased losses at higher current rates make fast charging a bad thing ... not a good thing. RE & Efficiency enthusiast
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Written on: 30 July 2009 [09:37]
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a2b.sustainably
Topic creator
registered since: 23.07.2009
Posts: 10
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Yardonn, I appreciate your frustration with promises. I've been reading a lot about promises for a long time too, but when you want to buy something, it isn't there (or it is only available in California). Iamian, I too like the idea of a velomobile. Since I like to cycle, it would be ideal to combine my commute with my work out. However, I live so far from work for it to be practical at the moment. An aerodynamic shape has a gradually tapered (teardrop) rear end. This taper offers room for child seats, while improving the vehicle efficiency at higher speeds. Are you opposed to extra seats in this case? Or would you prefer your 2 seats in a tandem arrangement vs. side by side? Even in this arrangement, there is room for a third seat in the rear if laws of aerodynamics are adhered to. Another thing to consider is how many children people have. When you have children, it is nice to be able to fit some of them in a second car if you need to. This is why 4 and 5 seat cars are so popular. It seems that combining the desire for extra seats with aerodynamics isn't a bad way to go, especially in a car that is desinged around being light weight. For those of you out there who have kids, and who can't live closer to work (or would prefer not to), what would you want your second car to be like if it was an EV? |
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Written on: 30 July 2009 [13:40]
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Yardonn
registered since: 22.08.2007
Posts: 160
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a2b.sustainably wrote: Iamian, I too like the idea of a velomobile. Since I like to cycle, it would be ideal to combine my commute with my work out. However, I live so far from work for it to be practical at the moment. How far do you have? I have 30 km one way. One year ago is was more than enought, now with driving-time less than 40 min i am not afraid of distances up to 50 km one way... I am going more than 1000 km a month with my E-Alleweder, at averagespeeds now scratching on 45 km/h. a2b.sustainably wrote: Or would you prefer your 2 seats in a tandem arrangement vs. side by side? Even in this arrangement, there is room for a third seat in the rear if laws of aerodynamics are adhered to. Of Course side by side is nicer. But it is airodynamical suicide. Laws of Physics for now fobide such things. Look for Monotracer (or E-Tracer) how it has to be done. No Choice there if you only wand to transport two people. a2b.sustainably wrote: Another thing to consider is how many children people have. When you have children, it is nice to be able to fit some of them in a second car if you need to. This is why 4 and 5 seat cars are so popular. It seems that combining the desire for extra seats with aerodynamics isn't a bad way to go, especially in a car that is desinged around being light weight. The Alleweder has a rear luggage compartment, in which a child-seat can be fitted. It was done one time. But with no weatherprotection from above usualy a children-trailer is the better choice. Sadly there is no legal way in germany to use a children-trailer behind an E-Alleweder, because trailers transproting people are generaly forbidden behind motor vehicles... CityEl can be fitted with seat for one child. The loremo ( LoReMo ) would be perfect for up to two children (if it will be produced...). But for the big Families and luggage i see no altenative to stationwagon or Van. And even if E-powered, this vehicles use up a lot of energy! We are planing two children (rural area...). For now and longer time i see no alternative for our small stationwagon (Peugeot 206 SW), perhabs we even need a bigger one later... I think for the next years E-Mobils will have to look for applications, where a car is just to big, for example 1-Person commuting. A good family-tranportion-Vehicle will always be a bad 1-person comuter vehicle... So we have to build different specialised vehicles for different purposese. And the only way this can work are carpools, because due to the cost of production, it will not be "green", if every family owns several specialised vehicles. So you just have to own your 1-person medium range commuter-vehicle (or a family two of them or a 1 1/2 Person vehicle), and in case of further needs this vehicle will transport you to your car-pool station. But of course this will not happen voluntrarily. It is just to convinient and time saving to have your own big Car waiting for you 24 hours a day... This way no new vehicles are needed. "Cars" like the CityEl could "flood" our cities, greatly reducing the number of "normal-car" kilometers driven. This is already done by a few enthusiats all over the world for decades, but it is just to complicated and inconvinient for the majority. We don't need luxury E-Cars. We need cheap and easy to use cars, so people are forced to use them to save money and do not have to fear complicated technologie. [This article was edited 2 times, at last 30.07.2009 at 13:42.] Alleweder 4
http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car |
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Written on: 30 July 2009 [22:50]
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iamian
registered since: 23.02.2009
Posts: 110
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I agree with most of what Yardonn posted. Just as written it isn't always a viable option... but, I do think , too many people don't even consider the down sizing option... as if the only direction to go in is bigger , heavier , faster. I think it should be just as common for people to question where they have positioned themselves for travel as what type of vehicle they use to travel. Tandem lends itself more to vehicle efficiency ... but is far less common to see in vehicle options... due to anesthetic reasons that have nothing to do with functionality. The vehicle properties that look good to allot of people very often directly reduce the vehicles efficiency... not everyone... but allot of people. I agree the 4 or 5 or more seats is popular ... but it is still a bad thing and directly reduces the efficiency of the vehicle ... while also directly increasing the cost to initially make / buy the vehicle and to operate the vehicle. As for the rear cargo seating option ... the multi-use space as either cargo or seats is an improvement over just using it for seats... but if most of the time you do not need the cargo or seats... it would still be better off to have an even smaller vehicle that doesn't have that space or weight either. The number of children is just one more thing to downsize. RE & Efficiency enthusiast
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Written on: 31 July 2009 [09:51]
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Yardonn
registered since: 22.08.2007
Posts: 160
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iamian wrote: The number of children is just one more thing to downsize. Not in Germany. We have to less children. A good mobility conzept here should include at least 2 children, better 3 to take in account, that to many people decide against children for various reasons so that the rest has to make that up, so that we (the germans...) do not become extinct... I believe 2 or 3 Children in a family shoud be consieder as "normal". Ofcourse, downsizing mankind is the best way to save the planet, but i don't think that that ist a popolar option... Alleweder 4
http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car |
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Written on: 31 July 2009 [11:34]
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a2b.sustainably
Topic creator
registered since: 23.07.2009
Posts: 10
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Assume for a second: -You must commute for some reason (house size, housing costs, schools, crime, whatever) -There are only two EVs available to you in your price range: The Loremo EV or the Smart for 2 EV -The features of the two cars are equal in every way but the vehicle shape and weight (Non-EV Loremo is 550 kg, and the 09 Smart is 820 kgs) Which car would you buy? Regardless of the number of children you have, you would pick the Loremo because it is more aerodynamically efficient and lighter. It also happens to have room for 2 kids (as a result of the aerodynamic shape). My point is that extra seats and space are not always less efficient. It depends on how it is integrated into the complete package. Sometimes you can have your cake and eat it too. If the car I described in my first post were possible, would you buy it, or go for something else on the market (diesel, hybrid, tandem EV, velomobile, etc)? There is always a big jump from liking an idea to actually buying a product. Would you make the jump? If so, which product would you buy? |
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