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What do you want in the perfect EV?
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Written on: 31 July 2009 [14:03]
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Yardonn
 
registered since: 22.08.2007
Posts: 160
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Smart is no option for me. To inefficient to be economical powered by batteries in the next few years. Without childern the Twike (or loremo or Aptera - if buyable...) would be the choice . With one child only the loremo would be the choice, 4th seat will be needed for luggagen and/or dog... With 2 children is has to be the size of a station wagon in order to carry dogs and luggage. No chance for a "sporty" looking car... I need room inside... There is no good electric choise with 4 seats and sufficient luggage-compartment on teh market (forget about converted normal cars... much to inefficient for me to consider one!) Don't misunderstand me, i am talking about our biggest "car" for whole family transportation. For comuting or shopping secondary cars can be much smaller, as i practice totay. But a stationwagen is hard to replace. Yesterday i had a "car-day" again, bringing my wife to work and doing a lot of things hard to do with a velomobil. The result was that it was hard to reserve the third seat for my mother to take her home from a birthdayparty. After dropping my mother at home the car was totaly filled on our last shopping-stop. Using a fuel burner that way is quite efficient. But to be honest, i need such a "car-day" only once am month, the rest of the month velomobil and CityEl are sufficient for my needs. I am not sure, weather we need a big family car on our own. But for my wife that is a matter of freedom to posses such a car, and as long as we can affort it i have no choice but to comply. But for me it is just a luxury-item. [This article was edited 1 times, at last 31.07.2009 at 14:04.] Alleweder 4
http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car |
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Written on: 31 July 2009 [23:31]
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iamian
 
registered since: 23.02.2009
Posts: 110
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a2b.sustainably wrote: My point is that extra seats and space are not always less efficient. It depends on how it is integrated into the complete package. Sometimes you can have your cake and eat it too. I disagree... the extra seats are inherently a negative impact on vehicle efficiency. Yes I agree there are a variety of ways to prioritize when designing and building a vehicle. The Lomaro was designed and built with vehicle efficiency being a much higher priority than in the Smart... thus the resulting product is more efficient. But if I took the same priority level for efficiency but designed a 1 seat Lomaro... it would be even more efficient... just like a 1 seat Aptera would be more efficient than a 2 seat Aptera. I will agree that depending on how those additional seats are designed and built into the vehicle you can have varying amounts of negative impact... and some methods will have less negative impact than others... but that just goes back to the priorities when designing and building it. I will also agree with Yardonn again ... that no matter what it does for single person commuting efficiency ... sometimes people just want the extra seats... and are willing to make that sacrifice to have them... or they are willing to take the efficiency hit to have air conditioning running... or to drive around one person in a 5 seat vehicle, etc. a2b.sustainably wrote: If the car I described in my first post were possible, would you buy it, or go for something else on the market (diesel, hybrid, tandem EV, velomobile, etc)? There is always a big jump from liking an idea to actually buying a product. Would you make the jump? If so, which product would you buy? The buying question for me is more complex than that... but in a nut shell just for having more than 2 seats it would start off with 1 strike against it for me. While it is possible there could be enough other benefits to compensate for that... I think it is very unlikely. Any other vehicle would have to compete with my current vehicle which I already own... I have virtually no up front cost in continuing with my current vehicle... just the on going operating costs... for another vehicle even $1,000 more than the trade in value of my current vehicle it would have to significantly reduce my operating costs to justify that expense ... as the initial cost goes higher and higher ... so does the required reduction in operating costs. Now for me... operating costs are not just about $... there are also environmental costs... life style costs... etc... there are a variety of costs... that each come into the equation in various amounts. For a $30,000 vehicle to be justified for me... it would have to offer more benefits than what I can get out of just investing about ~$25,000 into my current vehicle. For this reason while I do enjoy reading about the GM Volt... I will not consider buying it myself... because for less than it would cost me to buy a Volt... I can get equal or better benefits out of investing the same or less money into my existing vehicle. The only vehicles that I see as even being capable of tipping the benefit scales away from just investing back into my current vehicle ... might be something like a Twike, Aptera , Lomero , Volomobile, etc... but that is because for as light as my aluminum framed Insight is ... those vehicles are lighter... and for as Aerodynamic as my Insight is... those vehicle are more aerodynamic... yes there are thing that I can do that can reduce the weight and improve the aerodynamic profile of my Insight... but it might not end up being enough to close the gap in the amount it would cost to eventually move to one of those other vehicles. For me there is also a benefit right off the bat to any vehicle that includes a method for me to exercise while in transit ... even better if that exercise energy can be put to good use... so right off the bat the Twike like vehicles , and Velomobiles start with a head start / benefit built in. Yardonn wrote: Ofcourse, downsizing mankind is the best way to save the planet, but i don't think that that ist a popolar option... I agree... it is not popular at all... but it still has cost saving benefits for the parents and the society and for all humans as a species to down size the number of children / mankind's total population. But I suspect it will remain unpopular for a long time to come. RE & Efficiency enthusiast
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Written on: 01 August 2009 [00:29]
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ecoadmin
Administrator
registered since: 20.07.2007
Posts: 583
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iamian wrote: My ultimate vehicle is the one that meets my needs the majority of time ... the greener it is the better ... the less it costs me to buy and operate the better. But the vehicle itself is only part of that equation ... If I can relocate to commute 1/2 the distance ... that is the better choice , unless a vehicle costs less than the cost of relocating and that new vehicle is twice as green and cost effective... I agree with most of what has been said by all of you. Iamian and Yardonn made some really good points. The reason why I bought an electric vehicle was not only because I needed it. I must admit, I love going to places and cruising along but I wanted to stop doing that by using transportation which has obviously a very negative impact on all of us. So I decided to go for one of the most efficient vehicles which can fulfill our transportation needs. By using it every day, it shows that alternative ways of getting around are out there. It looks like many of the currently available or 'soon to be introduced' vehicles fulfill some of the features a2b.sustainably listed at the beginning. But an EV which fulfills all of these points with high marks in all areas is still to be made. Having said that, this should not restrict us from making the jump and using one of the vehicles available today! Twike 890
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Written on: 03 August 2009 [21:39]
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childress
Administrator
registered since: 14.08.2007
Posts: 140
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Most households (families) in the US own two vehicles. Usually some form of family-hauling vehicle such as a Mini-Van (7-8 passengers) and a commuter/about-town style vehicle, ie, a sedan (or truck). In my experience, for a family of 4 with 2 (currently small) kids, something Twike-sized works quite well -- if both adults are going in town, we take the full-sized car. This has amounted to 2-3 times per month or whenever we travel out of town. The kiddos are getting bigger, so I will have to move the 2-year old out of her infant seat in the back and remove the passenger-side pedals and install the tot-car seat there. We live in town (~100,000) also have a very good (for the US) bus system, and Zip Car (a commercial hourly car-sharing program) as well as your typical daily/weekly rental car agencies for us to fall back on if needed. Haven't really needed it yet, though most times my wife will rent a car when she goes out of town for business. Keeping with what is currently being used in the US market, I would far prefer a "family hauler" ie, a 7-8 passenger mini-van that is a (bio)diesel PHEV (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle) with direct drive from the electric motors only (ie, the diesel engine is only used as an electricity generator, not for driving the wheels). This allows the diesel engine to run at it's maximum efficient RPM (not rev through the gearing cycle). It would need to have a 20 mile electric-only range at in-town speeds. Unfortunately public transportation in the US is in such a state of shambles that even if there is a way to get from one city to another via train, because there is no easily accessible public transit once you get to the city you end up taking privately held public transportation (Taxis) or rental cars, at which point driving there would be cheaper. This is further exacerbated when you move from solo-travel to traveling in a group (family or team). I once priced out how much it would be to take my volleyball team on a train from Champaign Illinois to St. Paul, Minnesota a distance of 500 miles (800km), or about 9 hours. It was cheapest to drive (and the least difficult), THEN fly by aeroplane, and dead last in both cost and time spent traveling, the Train. The Train being by far the most efficient way to travel. So my perfect EV is not an EV at all, it's a well-designed bio-diesel compatible Plug-in Electric family hauler. Why? Because I've already got my commuting sedan, and because of it's reduced size (it's classified as a motorcycle) I get significantly reduced parking and registration (road/plate taxes & fees). Commute suck? Twike it; You'll like it!
http://www.uiuc.edu/goto/twike |
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Written on: 04 August 2009 [10:16]
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a2b.sustainably
 Topic creator
registered since: 23.07.2009
Posts: 10
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I too like the idea of a biodiesel/plant oil powered mini-van series hybrid for the big car. I think oil from algae will need to come of age before this is a viable option for the masses with no impact on global food prices/famine. Which will come of age sooner, fuel from algae or improved energy storage for pure electric? Time will tell. This post seems to have attracted a few twike/HPV fans. My biggest concern with a twike (or similar) is getting into an accident, especially with children on board. I assume it is safer than a motorcycle, and maybe safer than a bicycle. While you can pull two children behind you while riding a bicycle, the safety of this depends almost entirely on your speed (very slow) and road conditions. As commuting speeds increase above 20-30mph, the bicycle model falls apart from a safety standpoint, and it becomes more like a motorcycle. There is a reason you don't see young children on motorcycles as passengers unless you are in India. It isn’t safe. Plus, everyone else is going fast in heavy cars (KE=1/2mV^2), so even a slow car/twike would be better if it was crashworthy. I want a fast and safe commute. I want to make it home to the kids alive, and I want to do it quickly so I have more time to play with them. As a father, I have to put CRASHWORTHY at the top of my list for an ideal electric car, even if used as a 1 person commuter most of the time. I would like my children to survive a crash if they are on board, and I need to survive a crash for their sake, even if they are not on board. It sounds like many of you would prefer a crashworthy twike if it was available? Please put aside the notion that crashworthy = heavy. This is only true in Detroit. Is there anyone out there who wears a suit to work (and who works at a place without a shower and lockers) who might care to contribute a different slant on the ideal EV? Isn't the twike hot in the summer? How could you stand it at 100F/40C without AC? It is miserable enough just standing outside in those kinds of temps, much less pedalling in a greenhouse like cockpit. Do you all live in places where it never gets hot? If so, I'm guessing it rains quite a bit. Doesn't the tike get wet inside when you open the roof to get in (or while you are strapping your child in?) |
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Written on: 04 August 2009 [15:24]
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Yardonn
registered since: 22.08.2007
Posts: 160
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a2b.sustainably wrote: My biggest concern with a twike (or similar) is getting into an accident, especially with children on board. I assume it is safer than a motorcycle, and maybe safer than a bicycle. While you can pull two children behind you while riding a bicycle, the safety of this depends almost entirely on your speed (very slow) and road conditions. As commuting speeds increase above 20-30mph, the bicycle model falls apart from a safety standpoint, and it becomes more like a motorcycle. There is a reason you don't see young children on motorcycles as passengers unless you are in India. It isn’t safe. Plus, everyone else is going fast in heavy cars (KE=1/2mV^2), so even a slow car/twike would be better if it was crashworthy. I want a fast and safe commute. I want to make it home to the kids alive, and I want to do it quickly so I have more time to play with them. Well, better go to the army and buy a tank. It is much safer than all the other Cars on the street... So as a family father you have to drive a big Mercedes, because the rest is unsafe? How often do you get hit by other cars? Do you go by foot with your children, without any crash-safty? Sorry to get ironic, but this Crashwothy - thinking is crazy. Going at reduced speed does much more to the safty of your family than any crashprotection can do. There is no choise, crashworthy and lightwigt are two opposing things, when thinking economical (lightweight crashprotection like in formula 1 is just to expensive...). I do not consider a twike or a cityEl unsafe. Not even my velomobil, with very limited crash-protection. I feel safe crusing at reduced speed and with my senses on other people on the road. Of cause i might get unlucky. But see how many people die every Year in these "safe" cars. a2b.sustainably wrote: As a father, I have to put CRASHWORTHY at the top of my list for an ideal electric car, even if used as a 1 person commuter most of the time. I would like my children to survive a crash if they are on board, and I need to survive a crash for their sake, even if they are not on board. It sounds like many of you would prefer a crashworthy twike if it was available? Please put aside the notion that crashworthy = heavy. This is only true in Detroit. Is there anyone out there who wears a suit to work (and who works at a place without a shower and lockers) who might care to contribute a different slant on the ideal EV? Isn't the twike hot in the summer? How could you stand it at 100F/40C without AC? It is miserable enough just standing outside in those kinds of temps, much less pedalling in a greenhouse like cockpit. If you have trouble with the temperatures "just standing outside", you should work on your over all condition. In general, AC will become a very expensive luxurie item. If you can stand the outside temperature, you can twike, because insidetemperature is very close to outside temperature when removing the canvas. Yes, it is hot in the summer, but it has been hot in the summers bevore AC was invented, and mankind survived. What has become different? [This article was edited 1 times, at last 04.08.2009 at 15:25.] Alleweder 4
http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car |
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Written on: 04 August 2009 [23:25]
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ecoadmin
Administrator
registered since: 20.07.2007
Posts: 583
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Hi all, Today my goal was to redesign the header of this website, but all those interesting posts keep me reading...and answering.  While I see the importance of being in a crashworthy vehicle to get home alive, it must be stressed that driving a safer (and in many cases heavier) car, directly increases the risk for others. Everyone has different needs regarding the crash safety of their vehicle. But like with everything, there is a limit. The limit is where the balance between benefits for the occupants and other road users is no longer present. The limit is reached in no time. To stay within this limit you would have to drive e.g. an SUV at very low speed. In short SUVs can't be the solution. A few words about the Twike. Even though the vehicle has been designed for maximum efficiency, the safety is in my opinion good, considering the lightweight design. The correctly designed aluminium spaceframe offering good stability and protection together with the main aluminium chassis are the foundation for the passive safety. Riding a Twike in summer is no problem at all. We have over here in Central Europe many days with temperatures above 85 Fahrenheit / 30°C and all you gotta do is removing the top - and hey presto! you have a convertible Newer Twikes are definitely rain proof. I drove in conditions of torrential rain for extended times and I got home dry. No sweat. Admit, the Twike is not for everyone. But with a few little modifications it could be made acceptable for the masses, no doubt. As far as I am concerned, I do not need the 'little modifications', I think it is already a great vehicle like it is. Safe driving to you all, Cheers Twike 890
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Written on: 05 August 2009 [09:41]
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Yardonn
registered since: 22.08.2007
Posts: 160
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a2b.sustainably wrote: Doesn't the tike get wet inside when you open the roof to get in (or while you are strapping your child in?) Though not owning a twike i can answer, because the cityEl is using the same technique, and it was raining last sunday... First thing, the "ultimate" compfort i a sheltered place to start and end your journey (Carport, garage...). But if that is not given is is true, the interior is getting a little bit wet under bad circumstances. But that is also the case in most cars, because the doors are partly bend within the roofs... But where is the problem? Neather we or our vehicle will die from a few randropps. And in a twike (unlike a CityEl) you can strap your child from inside... There is no alternative for entering a high efficiency vehicle from obove, because the "regular" deep cut doors are a incredible thread to structural integrety of a vehicle. Regular cars have to use lot of metal and engeniering to get a good side- impact and structural stability around the doors. Twike or CityEl do not have this problem due to a "bathtube" shaped safty-cell and frame structure. It is really astonishing, i saw quite a lot of pictues of accidents with twikes and CityEls, but got no report of a heavyly injured driver (or even a dead driver!). Regular doors are a highly expensive compfort feature. This will realy become a problem for old and disabled people, when regular cars become unbeareble expensive to drive! Alleweder 4
http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car |
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Written on: 05 August 2009 [10:23]
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a2b.sustainably
Topic creator
registered since: 23.07.2009
Posts: 10
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I agree that SUVs (or Tanks for Yardonn) are not the answer. You are right to say that heavy does not equal safe for anyone but the passengers. It is more dangerous for everyone else on the road. However... -Loremo is light and safe (and seats two kids) -Aptera is light and supposedly safe (I think it will be based on how it is built with an energy absorbing foam core). -Many pseudo affordable (<50K) low end sports cars are light and safe. F1 tech is not required for light and safe to merge, just some smart and focussed engineering...and airbags. A car with airbags and crumple zones is nice to have, just in case some other morons on the road don't see me. I'm a great driver (IMHO) but have been rear ended and had a tire blow out at high speed (Firestone tire, not my fault). Crashworthy is a good thing, even for good drivers. To answer the most sarcastic retort of the day, I do (of course) walk with my kids without crash protection. We are moving VERY slowly, and try to stay on the sidewalk as much as possible, because it is safer there. When they ride bikes they wear helmets and stay to the side of the road, where it is safe. When we drive in a car, it is designed to be safe at high speeds. A twike (or similar) is unique in that it is not crashworthy, but is driven in traffic like a car (not on the side of the road like a bike). If a car (even a very small one) rear ends your twike at any kind of speed, you will probably die, and your children if they are with you. I don't consider this an ideal situation, but rather a very large compromise. Sadly, given what is available on the global auto market today, this compromise seems necessary in order to obtain any level of transport efficiency. Hopefully this will change very soon with global sales of the Aptera, Loremo, or the new Nissan Leaf EV, etc. As for the high temps. 85F and 100F are two very different temps. Good to know the twike is well ventilated. Even so, at 100F+ (40C+) everyone sweats just standing outside if there is any humidity. I am in great shape (not sounding very humble today) and routinely exercised (cycling and running etc.) and worked outside in 100F temps (until recently when we moved to a place without such extreme temps  ). I was always drenched in sweat when I was done. Who wants to show up to anything other than a cold shower or a swim after that? It is no way to show up at the office, or really any place where there are other people who might smell you. Back before AC, it was socially expected that you would stink and be dirty after a long trip if you lived in a hot place. This is no longer the case. Plus, it WAS miserably hot and dirty, they just didn't have another choice. Why do you think we invented AC and cars in the first place? It is better! It is also feasible in an EV if the rest of the car is done right (Aptera, Loremo). If I have a 100 mile range, but my commute is only 40-50 miles, where could I possibly use all those extra kWhs? AIR CONDITIONING!  What if my range was 250 miles? Crank up the radio too! Maybe put on a DVD for the kiddos in the back seat! Now we are talking!All kidding aside, we really do live privileged lives. It is great to have any kind of a car (or 2 cars) when most of the world still walks, and is doing well if they have enough food to eat. However, they all want what we have and are going to chase it, even if we tell them not too. And what westerner is going to lead by example and go without cars? (besides you suicidal twikers of course  ). If the world’s billions are going to chase personal transport with such passion, transport must be more sustainable. I propose there are ways to do this that minimize the compromises that have to be made (like safety). Mass transit and cycling are a big part of it. But that won’t work for people who live in rural areas. Affordable, sustainable personal transport is possible as part of a larger sustainably designed transport system. The technology is out there, but big auto is stuck with the heavy steel based manufacturing infrastructure they have built up during the era of cheap energy. They are also adverse to rapid change (risk). I love what Aptera is doing (affordable, light, aero, safe). I think it could be taken a step further, and made even more sustainable from a materials standpoint. And if it didn’t look so goofy, that would be nice too. |
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Written on: 05 August 2009 [11:40]
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Yardonn
registered since: 22.08.2007
Posts: 160
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a2b.sustainably wrote: -Loremo is light and safe (and seats two kids) -Aptera is light and supposedly safe (I think it will be based on how it is built with an energy absorbing foam core). -Many pseudo affordable (<50K) low end sports cars are light and safe. F1 tech is not required for light and safe to merge, just some smart and focussed engineering...and airbags. light is relative. A Loremo with 600 kg is not realy lightweight, but on a good way. And (older) formula 1 technologie is used to build these "light" vehicles. Low end sports cars are not light if you consider them only carriing two persons... Twike and CityEl are too heavy eather if you compare them to a velomobil using 50 kg for transporting one person an luggage. I agree that light securety-technoligies like Airbags, ABS and ESR are very good to have, but these technologies are only affortable in high volume production because of the high adotion cost for different vehicles. a2b.sustainably wrote: ... and had a tire blow out at high speed there is the problem "high speed". Even my very light velomobile is much safer at top speed than each car at top speed. (for CityEl and Twike this es even more true...). Going hat high speed in idividualy controled vehicles is the problem. Yes, you have a problem when an SUV runs into your very light vehicle. But you also have this problem when a truck strikes your SUV. Under normal circumstances you don't need to worry about the weigth of other cars, under unnormal circumstances you might geht hit by a car when going by foot or get hit by something that even smashes a mecedes... a2b.sustainably wrote: If a car (even a very small one) rear ends your twike at any kind of speed, you will probably die, and your children if they are with you. this is just wrong. I know a case where a velomobil traveling at 25 mph was hit by a truck, and just pushed out of the way. Driver ended without any injuries. Light vehicles in most cased get pushed out of the way instead of getting smashed, like tonns of Metal in an SUV making a big bang. a2b.sustainably wrote: Even so, at 100F+ (40C+) everyone sweats just standing outside if there is any humidity. and there is the end of AC discussion. Yes it is that way. Society should accept it, build sufficiant bathroom and accept a short break for changig your cloth. Thats how i do it every morning at work... AC is totaly unacceptable without good insulated rooms (and cars are horribly bad insulated!). I am very glad that this kind of sensles waste of energy will soon be to expensive for the majorety. Even in my velomobil i can travell at high temperatures without sweating to much (going purely electric). The remaining sweat has to be accepted by the society. If not, society has to change again. a2b.sustainably wrote: If I have a 100 mile range, but my commute is only 40-50 miles, where could I possibly use all those extra kWhs? AIR CONDITIONING! What if my range was 250 miles? Crank up the radio too! Maybe put on a DVD for the kiddos in the back seat! Now we are talking!Yes, now we are talking how to work hard on making electric vehicles as ineffective as fuelburners are today.  Do you really think it is a good idea, to use as many kWh as you might possibly carry with you, or should we rather save them, to save our money and the resources of our planet? Do you just hit the gas harder, because your fuel tank is not empty yet? Alleweder 4
http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car |
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