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Forum » EV Forums » Environmental Discussion

Integrating the EV

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Written on: 31 July 2009 [22:01]
nbrack Topic creator registered since: 31.07.2009 Posts: 1	Much of the time, when the electric car is debated, most don't believe it is a feasible solution. I looked for logical approaches to implementing the EV and came across this author and speaker. I found his steps logical for today's demands and overall interesting. Prices now aren't feasible for a mass movement, but with technological advancements, I would assume they could be reduced to an affordable range. When he says that "gas stations" are everywhere, i.e. electrical outlets, I believe that this is only a key benefit if charging time isn't extremely long. Sure charging can be done over night when we sleep, but the batteries must last for a day of travel, and have quick recharge if needed for an on the go fix. What do you think? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rImKRTBwXkc
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Written on: 31 July 2009 [23:52]
iamian registered since: 23.02.2009 Posts: 105	I don't see the value in quick charging that the media gives it. A normal ~120V ~15A household outlet will restore about ~6 miles of driving distance every hour... if you work for an 8 hour day... you will get back ~48 miles of travel distance in that time... once you get home... you will have even more than ~8 hours of the vehicle just sitting there stationary. A very small % of people commute further than ~100 Miles round trip every day. The fast charging is just a convenience feature that people want ... but have very little actual need for it. A conventional ~220V ~30Amp Dryer outlets are not that difficult ... and will up the charging rate to ~25 Miles every hour... up to ~200 Miles in an ~8 hour work shift... and even more than that over the more than ~8 hours people park their cars at home. There is a small % of the population that might have an occasional use / need for more than just conventional charging rates... but for the vast majority of people ... they want it ... but they don't actually need it ... and the vast majority of the time would never actually have a need to use it. 2000 MT Honda Insight MIMA & FAS equipped ... PHEV in progress. Franken E-Bike 36V NiMH 600W Hub-Motor.
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Written on: 31 July 2009 [23:53]
childress Administrator registered since: 14.08.2007 Posts: 131	I believe that this is only a key benefit if charging time isn't extremely long. If an EV is appropriately-sized (ie, reduced), most have a quick-charge feature that will get around 80% of a full charge in 2 hours or so. A full 'normal' charge is between 6-8 hours, which corresponds to the same amount of time as most people's work hours: charge overnight, drive to work, charge over work, drive home. but the batteries must last for a day of travel The need for more range & top speed (prior to mass adoption) is a myth: It is perpetuated by the major Auto manufactures and furthered by the Automotive X-prize. Take a good hard look at the included graph from the US Department of Transportation: 80% of ALL American's daily driving miles are 50 miles or less. This means that one of the most car-centered nations in the world could be covered by an EV that can go 25-30 miles, then be quick-charged to 80% in 2 hours (like when shopping/long lunch/dinner/date downtown) or full-charged over the 6-8 hour workday. Oh yes, and the average American household size is less-than 2.5 and dropping, while the average american household has 2 or more cars. Most passenger miles are 2 or less passengers. So as you can see, once you take into account all of that data, your conditions are already met with currently produced electric vehicles and if it's not, that's ok because most will have a second car anyway. However the author makes some assumptions that "gas stations" everywhere, meaning electrical outlets, that you will need to make sure that your EV can charge on a standard home/business electrical circuit. In the US this means a 3-prong (hot, neutral & ground) 120V/15A-max -- if you pull over 15amps of current, you will most likely trip the fuse/breaker and depending on if you notice, be out of electricity and might need to find another outlet if you don't have access to the fuse box. Note that some households have 20A or 30A circuits (mine). I have my Twike set to slow-charge 6A and fast-charge at 16A (those are kinda fuzzy settings -- I've measured it pulling 19A on a fast charge). When I'm out and about I will only pull a fast charge on an outlet I know can take it. So "quick recharges... for an on-the-go fix" is incompatible with "charge stations everywhere" -- but a 3/4 hour slow charge is more than enough to get me to work/home. Note that the majority of EV's behing developed by the big car manufacturers require special charging stations (!). This is because they must pull much higher amperage than standard household/business outlets in order to fill up their huge battery packs to push their oversized weight too foasat for their single occupant. 2-5,000 pounds to deliver a 100-300 pound payload is horribly inefficient. most don't believe it is a feasible solution Most (especially my fellow Americans) don't understand long-term economics (something costing more up-front, but saving you a lot of money in the long run aka a well-built electric car), as such they don't believe (or can't conceive) of peak oil/gas/coal, and think that their (in)actions/choices do not directly impact global warming/weirding. And that climate change happens slowly over millinea (it can happen quite quickly once you reach the tipping point, much like a color change in an acid/base titration). Just Do It. In two years I've put over 8000 miles on my 11-year old Twike. Just going to work, going to the gym and running errands (groceries) around a small town (~100,000 people) in the MidWest USA. Year-round (we've got some pretty nasty winters here). He pretty much lost me though when he said "If this means nuclear, then we need to be about it" I would be interested if he actually owns and drives an electric car... some of his statements make me believe he doesn't. [This article was edited 1 times, at last 31.07.2009 at 23:59.] Commute suck? Twike it; You'll like it! http://www.uiuc.edu/goto/twike
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Written on: 01 August 2009 [00:03]
iamian registered since: 23.02.2009 Posts: 105	childress wrote: If an EV is appropriately-sized (ie, reduced), excellent point... a more efficient EV like a Twike should be able to get the same distances of charge time with less than 1/2 the charging rate of a much larger / less efficient vehicle... or get twice as many mile per hour of charging from the same power level outlet. Nice Graph... I'd read reports about that ... but the graph is a nice visual... thanks. 2000 MT Honda Insight MIMA & FAS equipped ... PHEV in progress. Franken E-Bike 36V NiMH 600W Hub-Motor.
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Written on: 01 August 2009 [00:49]
ecoadmin Administrator registered since: 20.07.2007 Posts: 504	I agree, that 'quick charge' thinkig is non-sense. Of course it would be nice to charge an EV in only a few minutes by plugging it into a normal household socket, but it isn't needed in most cases. As Childress says, some of the EVs developed today need a special charging point to be full in 6-8 hours... This again comes with another risk. The risk, that an infrastrucure is built which is not needed. This infrastructure comes with a datalink, so your new shiny EV from GM or Daimler can only be charged when using electricity from a provider they have an agreement with. Of course this infrastructure does not come free of charge. So in the end we end up paying again $10 for a full charge...8$ to maintain the infrastructure and 2$ for the gas ähm electricity.. If vehicles are appropriately-sized, the charging time is reduced as well. A good example is the Twike. Charging 2-3 hours at 10A (depending on the battery size) is enough to go again up to 100miles. To be honest with you, I do not need this range very often. Most of the driving is done within a 25 mile range. And as the the graph tells you above, this is true for almost all of us. ecocarforum.com - Green Car Network
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Written on: 04 August 2009 [00:23]
Yardonn registered since: 22.08.2007 Posts: 156	ecoadmin wrote: I agree, that 'quick charge' thinkig is non-sense. Of course it would be nice to charge an EV in only a few minutes by plugging it into a normal household socket, but it isn't needed in most cases. "but it isn't needed in most cases." True, but there is the problem. There are cases, when it would be needed, but it it inefficient to be implantend just for these cases. So you lose flexibility. Sometimes our car makes several hundret miles a day. Sometimes after one regular way (e.g. comuting...) we instantly go on driving elsewhere... With an economic ( not oversised battery) this would be impossible without quick charging. But be honest, quickcharging, though tecnical possible is practical in many cases no option. A regular outlet just deliveres to less energy to quickcharge a vehicle that uses several kWh per 100 km. Therefore you need high power outlets. And in many cases you would like to quickcharge on your way, so you need public high power outlets. Possible, but in reality there are very few of these stations. And quickcharging costs a lot of money. My "car" (see the E-Alleweder thread) uses aprox 1 kWh per 100 km. It is technical possible to build a 1 kWh battery , that can be recharged by a regular outlet in a little more than 15 minutes. But even for me (i work part time in battery-testing...) is is uneconomical, to invest into the nececary A123 Cells and a proper charger, because most of the time i have time to recharge slowly. For me it is cheaper to avoid situations that need quickcharge... My alternative are extra batteries, but this works only on a vehicle, which has as light batteries as mine, so i can take 10 times my regular capacity with me. And of course this only works, because my job grants me access to additional batteries when i need them. Not realy a solution for everyone. Of course a battery rental system could help, but therefore we would need standarts for batteries, and that is not in sight... Alleweder 4 http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car
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