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Air Pressure technology
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Written on: 27 August 2008 [09:33]
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Thomas2c
Topic creator
registered since: 26.08.2008
Posts: 6
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I am surprised there is no place here for air pressure technolgy. I believe this is less exciting than electricity, but this techno opens for improvments vs electric solutions : - zero pollution during recycling of the energy tank (compressed air tanks vs batteries) - low cost of the tank itself (vs batteries) - very light rotative motor and tanks (vs heavy batteries & electric engine) What's the issue then ? Thanks for your contribution Thomas de Charentenay
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Written on: 27 August 2008 [22:25]
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ecoadmin
Administrator
registered since: 20.07.2007
Posts: 583
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Thomas2c wrote: I am surprised there is no place here for air pressure technology. That can be changed! With the next forum revision I will see how and where such a forum could be included. Air Cars have indeed gained public interest recently. I must admit I don't know that much about it. Wikipedia gave me some answers to my questions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed-air_car There are lots of advantages to this technology and some disadvantages. As with everything  Tata Motors of India announced 2007 to produce an air car to be ready for delivery in 2008. Checking their website I was unable to find any more info on it. Just a PR trick, a little 'green washing' maybe?Other reports also claim that air cars are not as efficient as battery powered vehicles. I have attached a pdf file which goes into more details. I haven't read it all yet, but it seems a trustworthy source. More info on the institute publishing the report here: http://iere.org/ILEA/index2.html Thomas do you have any reports and tests which prove otherwise? If efficiency would be similar to an electric car, the air car would have the advantage of lower initial costs and fewer hazardous chemicals such as gasoline or battery acids/metals over the electric car. And a video from youtube with an air car in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov4t1P9bdGw Stefan ecoadmin Twike 890
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Written on: 28 August 2008 [09:44]
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Thomas2c
Topic creator
registered since: 26.08.2008
Posts: 6
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Stefan the attached article you provide in PDF is the most complete and easy to read I ever found. Thanks a lot !  I would push forward the discussion from this article to argue that 'flat' comparison between EV and Air Pressure is not fare (Air pressure is said to be 50% less efficient with regards to km you can move from a 100MJ electrical source). Og course you understand I'm in favor of Air as THE 100% ecological way to make cars move. And efficiency is a good way promote a solution. So a few new elements in favor of air pressure efficiency : - 1 - batteries + engine would represent at least 300 kg more weight on a EV car than on Air Pressure car. Meaning you can add 20% more efficiency to the Air option. Remaining issue being then security, as light cars may cause more injuries to inoccupants when they have an accident. - 2 - To evalutae energy balance, lets consider a car life long energy consumption, meaning the energy that requires a car initial building up to its destruction and recycling, plus the energy to make it move for an average 100 000 km. I heard that for a classical gasoline car 30% is for building, 30% for the 100 000 km and 30% for recycling (when done properly). For EV cars, it would be interesting to know the energy necessary to built the batteries and recycle them ! This would be in favor of Air solution, for sure. -3- If you cannot compare energy, lets compare costs, full cost. Air pressure engine and storage devices are based on low tech and long lasting solutions, when batteries use Lithium and plastics etc... that cost a lot to make and maintain. In the end the difference in efficiency between EV and Air that would cost up to 1 euros every 100 km (in favor of EV), is to be compared to 3 000 Euros at the begining (in favor of Air). Over 100 000 km Air goes more cost effective. Not taking into account batteries replacement. Is there any ecolo-economist around the table ? Best Thomas Thomas de Charentenay
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Written on: 28 August 2008 [22:48]
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ecoadmin
Administrator
registered since: 20.07.2007
Posts: 583
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Hello again... I am always a bit sceptic in regard to such documents and assessments as provided above. One never knows who's behind and what interests they represent. You have made some very strong points I must agree. I like the simplicity of an air car and that again means light weight, reliability and long-lasting. All attributes of the car of the future. What is to be seen is that air cars actually do drive as advertised and offer the range companies like Tata promised. So far only prototypes have been spotted and I believe there is little long-term experience with air cars, meaning that we are at the very beginning of this technology. At the moment battery powered cars get most of the attention and its my understanding that this is because they offer the biggest potential to be widely accepted because its possible to build them now with little or no loss in comfort and range. This is particularly true for Range Extended EVs or Hybrids. This path is a step into the right direction but adds only little pressure on the issue of vehicle weight. To become more efficient we need to lower the weight of our vehicles. A electrically powered Range Rover or a Lexus SUV is just plain green-washing. The world is probably better off if you go for a small city car...This time size matters! or: if you can't make it good, make it BIG We still drag our feet with downsizing although we should know by now that supersizing is only leading to collapse! So if you want to to something good for all of us: Downsize! The air car needs a low weight to achieve a good range and more would efforts would be made to reduce vehicle weight. And as you correctly say this would have a positive impact on efficiency. The electric car movement is at the moment in its puberty years. We see new technologies emerge almost daily and some also dissapear again as fast as they apperared. The vehicle weight is as important as the power source and more should be done to lower the weight. As a buyer one option you have is to buy a smaller car. It also costs you less and is less of a hazard to pedestrians. If you still need a car its a fast way to make a change. Lighter cars also use less energy of course. Regardless of its power source. Thomas what air car do you think has at the moment the highest potential to be built soon? Any idea? Cheers Twike 890
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Written on: 29 August 2008 [10:35]
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Thomas2c
Topic creator
registered since: 26.08.2008
Posts: 6
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Waht would be the Air Car first on the market ? Tata / MDI proposal which is shown on Youtube and websites as THE valid solution is managed by guys who bring in personal conflicts, ego centric behaviors (see home page of MDI website where they officially are in dispute with former ingenior : http://www.mdi.lu/eng/affiche_eng.php?page=accueil ). This communication is a mess. This is very bad for business. Investors hate 'inventors managers', hate 'issues' and so I doubt this will practically emerge as a mass production. By the way Tata do not confirm alegations of cooperation with MDI, which again is a bad sign. EV cars projects emerge from big car makers or batteries makers (Bollore Blue Car for instance). There is 2 sides pressure in addition to the market which make things move forward. But for Air pressure there is no 'batteries' maker to push for a solution. And then no Car maker is evaluating this option. So I believe that if a car goes out of the factory any day with Air Pressure this will emerge from a low tech car maker (Tata or Chinese) on a low regulation market. Or a state decides this is interesting and buys 10 000 units. A miracle. Even if I'm interested a lot in that solution, I'm not optimistic at all. Thomas Thomas de Charentenay
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Written on: 29 August 2008 [16:03]
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Lensman
 registered since: 31.05.2008
Posts: 75
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MDI looks very much like a scammer; a completely fraudulent company. From Wikipedia: Production History: 2000-2008: Production in France was claimed to be starting in late 2000, and at frequent intervals, in several countries, thereafter. None are in production as of July 2008. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Development_International TATA motors does *not* appear to be a scammer. What does this mean? Did MDI scam TATA, or does this mean TATA will actually develop the technology which MDI has been promising for decades but has never developed? I've read elsewhere that an "air car" is totally bogus; that you could never store enough energy in the amount of compressed air which a car could carry to run it more than a few miles. However, there *have* been practical "air cars" in the past; they used a burner to heat air. So basically they worked like a steam engine, only using air instead of steam. Steam engines are inefficient in comparison to gas engines; that's why steam engines are obsolete. Are we supposed to believe that now, someone has figured out a way to make the external combustion engine (like a steam engine) more efficient than an internal combustion engine (like a gasoline engine)? It seems *very* doubtful to me. Another problem I have with "air cars" is that reports on them always claim that running the cars is "free" because "air is free". This is a complete, total, utter lie, and it makes me *very* suspicious of the entire concept of an "air car". If it were real, those promoting it wouldn't need to lie. This article claims the plan to produce the air car in India starting in August of this year (2008 ) has been put on hold, and that they now intend to market it in France at the end of this year or next. Sounds very much like the same runaround from MDI to me. Altho I don't claim to be an expert on air cars, it looks to me like we'd best wait until a prototype is built which is tested by an independent laboratory before we believe any "air car" is actually practical. [This article was edited 9 times, at last 29.08.2008 at 16:30.] |
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Written on: 29 August 2008 [17:03]
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Thomas2c
Topic creator
registered since: 26.08.2008
Posts: 6
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Dear admin, to make it clear if Air Pressure in a valid or not option, and to identify instrial players, I would recommand you create a master entry in your forum. I think the total energetical balance is not so bad, and that temperature management indeed has been better managed than in the past. Only for energy balance, you need to compare the total energy that is used to make the car moving (including batteries or tanks weight) + producing the fuel (Electricity vs Compressed air) and I'm sure you will end with something like : - petrol efficieny = 20% of the initial energy makes the car move forward - electricity = 50% of the initial energy makes the car move forward - compressed air = 30% of the initial energy makes the car move forward, wich not very good, but much better than petrol and much cheeper. This has to been seen by independent labs, you are right. Thomas de Charentenay
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Written on: 29 August 2008 [23:40]
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ecoadmin
Administrator
registered since: 20.07.2007
Posts: 583
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Dear all Thanks for the valuable inputs about 'air cars'. The fact that this technology has not been properly verified and testesd by a third party makes this topic an in my opinion an ideal entry for the Tech Log. Thomas I am not sure what you exactly mean with master entry...Can you explain me a bit more detailed? We have the following options: -Open a new dedicated forum -Open a thread marked with 'Info' or 'Sticky' for example, always listed on top -Continue as is... Please keep writing about any news you might have about air cars. Whether true or not, lets keep an eye on it... Cheers Twike 890
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Written on: 30 August 2008 [16:00]
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Lensman
registered since: 31.05.2008
Posts: 75
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Thomas2c wrote: Only for energy balance, you need to compare the total energy that is used to make the car moving (including batteries or tanks weight) + producing the fuel (Electricity vs Compressed air) and I'm sure you will end with something like : - petrol efficieny = 20% of the initial energy makes the car move forward - electricity = 50% of the initial energy makes the car move forward - compressed air = 30% of the initial energy makes the car move forward, wich not very good, but much better than petrol and much cheeper. Tesla Motors claims 86% efficiency in charging batteries, and about 80% efficiency in converting stored electric power to mechanical motion. That's a combined 69% efficient. Of course, that's not to say the average electric car will achieve that. But they've proved it's possible, or at least that's what they claim. |
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Written on: 09 September 2008 [09:21]
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Thomas2c
Topic creator
registered since: 26.08.2008
Posts: 6
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ecoadmin wrote: The fact that this technology has not been properly verified and testesd by a third party makes this topic an in my opinion an ideal entry for the Tech Log. Indeed the air pressure technology is active for over a century like electricity and fuel-cell, but did not meet success of petrol for individual mobility solutions. So tech experts in this forum may dig into Air Pressure history to discover again what was 'the' solution to typical issues related to it : cool air management, air tanks max capacities, energy stored and efficiency, etc... There has been a lot of work on that... A would recommand a thread in this forum. Thomas de Charentenay
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