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Industry develops universal plugs to recharge EVs. Good or bad?
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Written on: 25 April 2009 [13:42]
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ecoadmin
Administrator
Topic creator
registered since: 20.07.2007
Posts: 585
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The discussion about EVs and how we drive is in full swing. Many power companies are increasing their efforts on the subject and team-up with car manufacturers. Big cities like Berlin, London and Paris are getting charging stations provided by power companies such as RWE and EDF. You might think "Great!", we are moving into the right direction and EVs will capture the market. But is this really as good as it sounds? Here a few critical words: - Power companies and car manufacturer keep telling us that to successfully invent EVs, a dense network of charging stations is necessary. Hmm...Don't we have this already? Fact is, power sockets are everywhere and they are ready to be used for EVs. They have virtually no maintenance costs. Should you need to go abroad, all you need is an adapter. A few days ago it was reported that an agreement has been reached on a ‘common plug’ for recharging vehicles with the statement "In a few years drivers may find themselves pulling into filling stations and saying, “Fill her up with 400-volt three-pin premium.” Bear in mind though that such plugs probably come with communication features, meaning that your power company or mobile phone provider knows about your charging and therefore will be able to charge fees. There is even the risk, that car manufacturers only allow you to use stations from the power company they have agreements with, respectively the cost for a charge varies depending of the provider you use. So what is driving these power companies to install sockets all over the cities? MONEY. - If such a common system would be used on the future EVs, how about charging your car at your home? Would this be allowed? If not, the EV will have a difficult stand as it would no longer be possible to recharge it at home. In my opinion a great advantage of the EV. Maybe both options will be available to us. A fast-charge at a premium-fee and the low-power charge at home or elsewhere. Because most people use their cars only on short distances, only a fraction would need fast-charging stations. The costs to set these nationwide up, would be exorbitant. To cover the costs for communication, maintenance would be high, a charge at such a station several times more expensive than using the existing network. In Europe there is already a system called Park & Charge in use. The user pays an annual fee of about $80-$100 and gets free parking and charging all year round. Very often users do not draw electrical power equivalent to the $100 per year. But the costs are worth every penny even though you use the system only occasionally. Just think of the parking fees you pay in a bigger city and you understand why. Plus as a member you get charged up for free. Why change a running system with low maintenance costs which benefits both: users and providers? Insider sources tell me that this topic is discussed hotly between car companies and energy providers. But the market will eventually have to do what attracts the consumer. For me, recharging my EV at $10 is unattractive. Now please let me know what you think. Wishing you all an electrifying weekend. Stefan Twike 890
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Written on: 27 April 2009 [13:12]
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Yardonn
 
registered since: 22.08.2007
Posts: 160
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I don't think that charging at home will at any time be illegal. Other way around, despite all charging stations (that may come...), charging at home (proboably overnith at low power) will be the usual way to charge. But then not charging at home, a plug with high power is needet, to fill even small batteries very quickly (if they allow to do so, like A123). Even a twike is since years limited in charging only by the regular power outlet (in Germany max 3,6 kW). Batteries could be charges with much more power. And charging on a public charging station is very often unattractiv, if it can't be done quickly. Park and charge is not so bad, but in quite often still bases on a regular 220V wall outlet, which is far to less for some appliances. So a unified high power plug (yes, i know there is a quasi-standart for this even with park and charge with the "CE"-Powerplug) can even help park and charge, if there are adaptors or park and charge also switches to this system. I would even pay 10€ for a quick charge, but of course only when ther is no other option. And in most case, if prices are to high, people will finde alternativ power sources (in the majority of the kitchens you find all three phases of electric power, an it it quite easy for an electrician to install a proper plug... For my Alleweder the availibility of high power charging station would be very atractive. A perfect (today affortable) battery would consit of 1 kWh of A123 batteries. With a high power charger (would have to be developed/addaptes) i could charge this batterie within 6 minutes (using 10 kW power). 6 minutes of Charging for apricemately 100 km. Possible with today availible (affortable is a diffent question...) technologie. That would solve (for me) any problems of range (for a mobile with a maximum speed of 50 km/h...) [This article was edited 1 times, at last 27.04.2009 at 13:13.] Alleweder 4
http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car |
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Written on: 28 April 2009 [10:21]
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Franko30
Administrator
registered since: 08.09.2007
Posts: 88
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Hi, ecoadmin wrote: But is this really as good as it sounds? Here a few critical words: (...) There is even the risk, that car manufacturers only allow you to use stations from the power company they have agreements with, respectively the cost for a charge varies depending of the provider you use. So what is driving these power companies to install sockets all over the cities? MONEY. Well, for one: This is not a universal system, but only the first two companies (Daimler and RWE) to announce their respective "universal system". Since EDF and the French car manufacturers are not with the alliance (althought press releases state otherwise) we can look forward to the "French sytem"... And concerning the "risk, that car manufacturers only allow you to use stations from the power company they have agreements with": Yes, for us is it a risk - for them, it is the plan! Finally a vehicle you have under control even after it is sold. Just imagine the uproar, if Daimler tried to sell combustion engine cars that coul only be refilled at Shell fuel stations! ecoadmin wrote: In Europe there is already a system called Park & Charge in use. The user pays an annual fee of about $80-$100 and gets free parking and charging all year round. Stefan, you're wrong here (I can say so, as I'm a member of the AG Park & Charge within the Bundesverband Solare Mobilität - bsm):
ecoadmin wrote: Insider sources tell me that this topic is discussed hotly between car companies and energy providers. But the market will eventually have to do what attracts the consumer. For me, recharging my EV at $10 is unattractive. Well, my guess is that the first 2-3years of electric cars from the big companies will still have a "230 V backup charging system" that adheres to current standards like "Schuko" or CEE. But they will use this time to lobby for laws that make their system legal - they will convince those idiots called politicians, that their system ist the best for both them and the state because it allows total control of the user... Cheers Frank Mitsubishi i-MiEV + Citysax 002, davor/formerly Twike 808 and 891
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Written on: 28 April 2009 [10:32]
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Franko30
Administrator
registered since: 08.09.2007
Posts: 88
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Hi, Yardonn wrote: I don't think that charging at home will at any time be illegal. Well - but it will be made impossible by a "black box automobile" - and they might even sell the car and lease the "black box", so if you fiddle with the box you commit a breach of contract or - even better - commit a computer-crime (the black box is hard- and software). And the laws, as well as the possible penalties for this kind of crime have been "enhanced" all over Europe. Fiddling with the black box might even be considered an infringement of copyright or "intellectual property rights" - and the penalties for that are even crazier... Yardonn wrote: Other way around, despite all charging stations (that may come...), charging at home (proboably overnith at low power) will be the usual way to charge. If you live in suburbia - how will you do that when you live, let's say, in Berlin-Mitte where you can only park on the street(I lived there and paid 80 EUR/year to park on the street - as opposed to around 100-200 EUR/month for a private (underground) parking garage)? Yardonn wrote: Park and charge is not so bad, but in quite often still bases on a regular 220V wall outlet, which is far to less for some appliances. Give us time - we're equpiing more and more P&C boxes with 400V/16 A/CEE sockets. Almost all the new ones are sold with this, and the old ones can be "upgraded". Cheers Frank [This article was edited 1 times, at last 28.04.2009 at 10:32.] Mitsubishi i-MiEV + Citysax 002, davor/formerly Twike 808 and 891
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Written on: 28 April 2009 [22:49]
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ecoadmin
Administrator
Topic creator
registered since: 20.07.2007
Posts: 585
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Franko30 wrote:
Hi Frank, Correct. It's true on some P & C stations you pay for parking. Most of them are free though in Switzerland. I pay €58 for my '+Energy' sticker per year. For a 4-wheeler you would pay €68. The key deposit is €66 for a vehicle like the TWIKE. A bit more than in Germany but still worth it in my opinion.  Twike 890
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Written on: 29 April 2009 [12:58]
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Yardonn
registered since: 22.08.2007
Posts: 160
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Franko30 wrote: If you live in suburbia - how will you do that when you live, let's say, in Berlin-Mitte where you can only park on the street(I lived there and paid 80 EUR/year to park on the street - as opposed to around 100-200 EUR/month for a private (underground) parking garage)? Totally different situation than in rural areas. Here many people have space for their Cars on our own ground and in many case no problem to install any kind of electric power plug. Same in many areas of the united States, every electric car was till now sold with the "advantage" of charging at home. I don't think that carmakers can affort do anger "charging at home"-Users, because there are more "home-charging-stations" (people with acces to an electric plug) than people with comfortabel access to charging station. And even if they try, as soon as these "blackboxes" become a mass product skilled electricians and porgrammer will hack them and provide the possibility to charge at home. Just imagine the tremedous disatvantage of a car, you can not charge at your destiny (usually i am vititing people, not chargingstations...). A car without the possibility to charge (slowly) at a regular outlet will not be successful. Alleweder 4
http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car |
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