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Forum » EV Forums » Tech Log

Lithium. A finite resource?

Author	Message
Written on: 06 May 2009 [13:26]
ecoadmin Administrator Topic creator registered since: 20.07.2007 Posts: 517	The automotive industry has woken up, at least to some degrees , and alternative ways to power their cars are considered. One 'solution' to the problems of cars using internal comustion engines, are electric vehicles. No doubt, the EV has a very high potential to lower emissions generated by road traffic. Batteries using Lithium are considered as 'the solution' and development is ongoing. Lithium is a relatively rare material and is not available in all areas on the globe. The main resources are located in South America. Due to intensified efforts over the last few years, the amount of confirmed lithium reserves has tripled. According to some sources these amounts will not be sufficient to replace the current ICE technology and less than 10% of all cars could benefit from this resource. The mining activities will also have an environmental impact in the regions where Lithium is sourced. I do not have exact figures about the above subject. But I wonder what your opinion is. If you have, also post resources helping to understand thhe matter better. I believe Lithium will not be the ultimate solution for the transport industry, but it has revived the electric car movement. This movement helps to encourage automakers to develop lighter and more efficient cars and its advantages benefit any other propulsion methods. ecocarforum.com - Green Car Network
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Written on: 07 May 2009 [00:54]
iamian registered since: 23.02.2009 Posts: 107	real numbers get confusing fast. For instance ... how much Li is used in a battery pack? This not only varies depending on the size of the battery pack in kwh ... but it also varies depending on the specifics of the chemistry used... Li can be part of the Cathode , Electrolyte , or Anode in the battery... but when people say things like a LiFePO battery they are only describing at most one of the 3 battery parts. So right off the bat you have to start making assumptions and educated guesses that may or may not be close to accurate about how much Li would actually end up being used in each battery pack. Then once you have a basic idea of the amount used per battery pack you can start looking at the supply chains ... and the current estimates of global reserves... There are soo many variables that any effort to narrow it down to a simple answer like... only enough Li for X number of vehicles ... it over simplifies it and makes the results ... at best a guess biased on the assumptions used. There are a few things we know... Li batteries are currently still pretty expensive ... economies of scale will force those numbers down until they run into supply chain issues in order to keep up with the supply needs of the economies of scale. So as they scale up... prices come down... and then prices start going back up. But as more money is spent on Batteries in vehicles more research is spent on it... and batteries improve... recycling improves ... maybe less Li will be needed 5 or 10 years from now... maybe improvements in other batteries will replace Li ones completely ... or maybe vehicles themselves will need less energy to move from point A to point B... maybe as recycling gets better we eventually reach a point of not needing to add as much new material to the cycle ... for instance ... no one is making water ... no matter how much we "use" it remains a reusable resource we can keep recycling it over and over and over again. Too many variables ... to know for sure one way or the other ... But I will say this ... I suspect Prices to keep coming down as economies of scale keep growing... then latter... prices will swing back up as supply becomes more an issue. I will also say... I still have my doubts about the viability of Li batteries ... they have some nice characteristics ... mainly the kwh per kg ... which is the #1 issue for 99% of mobile batteries ... but as far as I can see there are other better batteries for all other battery characteristics other than kwh per kg. 2000 MT Honda Insight MIMA & FAS equipped ... PHEV in progress. Franken E-Bike 36V NiMH 600W Hub-Motor.
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Written on: 10 May 2009 [13:58]
ecoadmin Administrator Topic creator registered since: 20.07.2007 Posts: 517	After some more research, I am still confused. On the internet it's like in the real world: How reliable is the information you get? Ian, I guess you are right, there are too many variables. For instance, it is very difficult to get much details about battery chemistry from the manufacturers. We just have to make sure that we are not blindly rely on just one resource like we did (and still do) during the 'oil age'. ecocarforum.com - Green Car Network
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Written on: 10 May 2009 [18:20]
iamian registered since: 23.02.2009 Posts: 107	ecoadmin wrote: After some more research, I am still confused. On the internet it's like in the real world: How reliable is the information you get? Ian, I guess you are right, there are too many variables. For instance, it is very difficult to get much details about battery chemistry from the manufacturers. We just have to make sure that we are not blindly rely on just one resource like we did (and still do) during the 'oil age'. Even if you do get details about the specifics of the chemistry of a specific battery how much Li is in it... not just in the Anode ... or just the Cathode ... or just the Electrolyte ... but the whole battery... that still only tells you about that one specific battery made that way and doesn't tell you how it would change as technology changes ... for instance to say LiFePO only tells you what the active part is in 1/3 of the battery... it doesn't tell you about the inactive parts , and it doesn't tell you about the other 2/3 of the battery... and it doesn't tell you about the manufacturing process used to make it. but even if you somehow managed to iron out every type of battery chemistry and the processes used to make them ... and you know exactly what new battery technology will come out in the next couple years and how it will effect the batteries ... even if you somehow managed that miracle ... it is still only a small piece of the much larger picture asked in the question. Even after you pull off the miracle of knowing how much will be in the battery ... the next question is how much battery will be in the car/truck? which is just as complicated and has just as many variables as the batteries themselves. Even if you manage to pull off both of those miracles ... there are still others. Thankfully there is still competition... if Li as a resource becomes an issue with Li batteries ... than we still have progress in NiMH ... if both Li and Ni both become resource issues at the same time ... we still have PbA ... etc...etc... I guess the ideal is when recycling gets good enough so that the Li from batteries in 2010 just all gets reused in 2020... or the Ni ... or whatever ... kind of like the way the eco system works... tree uses sunlight as an energy source to convert dirt , water , and air into more tree... when tree dies , microorganisms convert dead tree back into dirt ... next tree uses that dirt... etc... etc... eventually ... although not in my life time ... I suspect that humans will eventually reach that level of technology ... were nothing is thrown away , not poop... not dead people... nothing... soylant green 2000 MT Honda Insight MIMA & FAS equipped ... PHEV in progress. Franken E-Bike 36V NiMH 600W Hub-Motor.
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Written on: 01 January 2010 [22:06]
ecoadmin Administrator Topic creator registered since: 20.07.2007 Posts: 517	Hi all, I have found an interesting article about extraction of lithium from geothermal powerplants. Google Translation ecocarforum.com - Green Car Network
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