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Forum » EV Forums » Tech Log

Which green car technology will become widely accepted..?

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Written on: 08 March 2009 [11:34]
ecoadmin Administrator Topic creator registered since: 20.07.2007 Posts: 504	Hi everyone... With the delivery of my first EV, I am regularly in discussions with people about future car propulsion technology and their environmental impact. This topic has been discussed here and elsewhere over again, but I feel to share a few thoughts with you after discussions, reading the latest newspaper articles about the Geneva Motor Show and my own EV experiences. Despite the financial crisis, the news are full of articles on green car technology and what is about to debut on the market. Thats a good sign, because it shows that the issue is still being discussed and alive. But at the same time most of it is just plain 'green washing' and image polishing in my opinion. It becomes increasingly difficult for consumers to differentiate between the truth and untruth. Will the electric car make it to the masses soon? Or will it be the hybrids like the Prius or Insight who will attract the people? What about the Volt or Ampera, EVs with Range Extender? I am more pessimistic than ever and I do not think that the change will come about too soon. My guess is that projects like the Chevrolet Volt or the Opel Ampera have at the moment the highest potential (if GM survives that is). In my point of view people will not go for anything less if they have to pay more. And thats why the pure electric car will have a difficult stand in the coming years. How difficult it will be be is also largely dependant on the oil price. To get a range similar to an ICE powered car, the battery packs need to be relatively big and therefore pricey. On top of it, current (Lithium) battery systems need care to prolong their life (luckily it is not as complicated anymore like it used to be with Ni/Cd). But what I find a major drawback for EVs is the missing infrastructure to charge the car. Although we have power sockets virtually everywhere, they are not positioned for use with electric cars, nor do most of them offer the possibility to pay for the services provided. Car parks of apartment buildings, flats, company parkings, shopping malls - most of them are missing the infrastructure. Confronted with the problem of charging an EV, landlords, companies and parking owners are often willing to help but their face shows me that its all new to them. So when those shiny new EVs in 2010 arrive, the group of potential customers is in my opinion greatly reduced because the infrastructure is lacking behind the developemt of the cars. This phenomenon is a classic, I remember when Eastern Europe opened up to all the Fast Food chains. The food was there, but no waste bins! Vehicles like the Volt do get around many of the obstacles described above. - You can drive a Volt with depleted batteries, so no power socket needed everywhere you go - If you are able to charge, it will go a good distance purely on electric power - Battery care is largely taken care of by the ECU (Engine Control Unit), which keeps the battery always within the tolerances to guarantee its lifetime - Battery packs can be reduced in their size, reduces costs Hybrids like the Prius could be easily overtaken by the Volts technology as they are not as efficient when driven for commuting. My personal timeline for the introduction of new propulsion technologies to the masses: 1998 - 2015 Hybrids 2010 - 2020 PHEV 2012 - 2030 EV with Range Extender 2018 - .... EV And how do you see the future of the (green) car? ? ecocarforum.com - Green Car Network
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Written on: 08 March 2009 [22:02]
iamian registered since: 23.02.2009 Posts: 105	90% agree. I expect HEVs will continue into the future well past 2015... they will continue to take up more and more of the market... until I expect what cars aren't PHEVs , REEV , and EVs , the rest will all be HEVs... but that will take much more than 10 or 15 more years... than after that ... then maybe the % of HEVs on the road will begin to be traded for % of PHEV/REEV. PHEV and REEV are virtually the same thing... kind of like those old arguments about being a 'Full' or 'Mild' HEV... they combine technology to get better MPG... if you want to nit pick about the details ... nit pick about the performance details of the specific vehicles in question... a PHEV or a REEV both use plug in electrical power to offset gasoline usage... if you want to compare them... I recommend comparing the specifics of two specific vehicle examples. The EV will always be around... it always has... weather or not it gets mass market acceptance is yet to be seen... eventually EVs will dominate... but that might take 50 to 100 more years. I look forward to the time when there are more PHEV/REEV/EV on the market... Pure EVs will probably continue to be a nitch market for several more decades. 2000 MT Honda Insight MIMA & FAS equipped ... PHEV in progress. Franken E-Bike 36V NiMH 600W Hub-Motor.
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Written on: 22 March 2009 [02:06]
MarcPeetermans registered since: 28.04.2008 Posts: 1	Since the beginning of this year I am traveling to the office using my white Twike Active. It's still equipped with NiCd-batteries, but when driven at moderate speed (40-60 km/h) I can nearly always cover a distance of at least 60 km when batteries are fully charged. And because Belgium is a pretty small country of which the northern part (where I live and work) is rather flat, this range is adequate enough to fulfill all my mobility needs. In fact, the Twike Active is a phantastic vehicle: it is light weighted, it has low air resistance, an innovative and intuitive way of steering and it's offering you free fitness on the move. However, I am also realistic to know that the average car driver, which is heavily addicted to high speed, overweighted and oversized cars, will not easily adopt a hybrid LEV like a Twike Active in which he would have to drive like a Flinstone ! To conclude my brief comment, I am quite optimistic that progress in battery technology will be boosted by nanotechnology. At this moment electrodes in batteries are made very bulky and therefore they are not very efficient in transferring ions from and to the electrolyte. However, I recently read an article that researchers at the MIT are elaborating a new manufacturing process based on nanostructures which makes it possible to fully charge a LiFePO4-battery in a few minutes while enhancing the capacity of the battery considerably. And these batteries will be charged more often by PV-cells, since nanotechnology has boosted their efficiency also spectacularly last year. Fossile fuel cars are from the past Let's Twike at last !
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Written on: 22 March 2009 [02:26]
iamian registered since: 23.02.2009 Posts: 105	Hi MarcPeetermans ... well I can say that I do really like the Twike Active concept ... on many levels ... and on many levels I am envious of you lucky Twike folks ... if I have it my way a Twike, or similar vehicle will be in my future ... when I pull it off is yet to be seen... until then... I tinker with my 2000 model year Insight to improve it where I can... Although I found a new apartment closer to work... so maybe if I am lucky at least in better weather I can use my Franken E-Bike to commute with. I think Twike like vehicles should be an ultimate direction for vehicles to take... but I don't know how well the general public will take to that... it might take a few generations to get that much change... until then... it will be in a small niche of the EV market niche. 2000 MT Honda Insight MIMA & FAS equipped ... PHEV in progress. Franken E-Bike 36V NiMH 600W Hub-Motor.
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Written on: 31 March 2009 [19:14]
childress Administrator registered since: 14.08.2007 Posts: 131	I do not see it as a problem with public perception as much as availabilty for purchase as well as lack of economy of scale -- you can't get economy (cheaper Twikes) without mass production (scale). You can't get mass production without significant $$$ behind it. What is the point of having clean power, if you continue to squander it with inefficient vehicles? REDUCE, reusue, recycle. The other major thing holding back US citizens is that the big Auto manufacturers have sold them the idea of the "open road" and being able to "fly" down that road at 65, 70, 80 mph for 300 miles before refueling. In reality, the road is congested and in-town you may reach 45-50mph (and you're speeding/breaking the law). The other reality is that 80% of Americans drive 50 or less miles a day -- 50% of Americans drive 25 miles or less (usually half to work, and 8 hours later back home). Most US families own at least TWO vehicles, usually full-sized cars or a minivan and a car. Most of those miles to and from work are single passenger miles -- just the driver. That means for most daily use 80% of Americans need an EV capable of carrying one person 25 miles, charge while they're at work, then 25 miles home. You don't need 100, 200, 300 miles between charges, and you don't need to go 100 mph. I -hate- the Auto X-prize because of the perpetuation of those myths. In the Twike with the top down, 30-45mph feels like 80, and you can easily take a 90-degree turn at 20+ mph My co-worker told me that no matter what speed I'm driving the Twike at, it LOOKS fast -- like a bullet. This is NOT how I drive 433 everyday though -- I take the same roads that I would feel safe bicycling on In my driving of the Twike for almost 2 years (every day except one in the winter when not all of the snow/ice had thawed off the wheels overnight due to a week of sub-zero (Fahrenheit)) temperatures), it is universally accepted and IF the were available in the US for under 20k, I could sell 'em. Right now they're between $30-35k and unavailable for purchase (they're legal, just hard to get). I've got a standing offer for my 10-year-old Twike should I ever want to sell (I don't . "PHEV and REEV are virtually the same thing" No, they are potentially very different: In a REEV, the electric motors are the only thing driving the wheels (the fuel-based motor is merely a generator of more electricity). This is exactly how modern trains work (diesel generators with electric motors). The significant part of the puzzle is that with an appropriately designed REEV, you could swap-out the gasoline-based generator for a bio-diesel/diesel (it is very difficult to get a small diesel engine approved for use in California due to the way their emissions standards are written -- that is why there is no Aptera diesel-electric model), and later a fuel cell-based electricity generator resulting in a vehicle that gets GREENER with age. The "greener with age" also applies to EV's, IF you can get a source of renewable green energy -- my Twike currently runs on coal/nuclear powered electricity (mostly coal). IF the US signs Kyoto and IF the Obama administration gets as serious on CO2 as we did on ChloroFloro Carbons on the Ozone layer, we do have the power to radically and quickly change the way Americans (and hopefully the world) drives. However, bailing out Chrysler, GM and Ford is NOT going to help this happen. They drove themselves into the ground long before the crash, and we need to let free market forces dictate what happens to them, ie, we need to let the go bankrupt. Otherwise they're impeeding the formation & stability of small companies that will bring cars to the American public that they want and need. M@ Twike 433 (approaching 8,000 miles driven -- 12,875 kilometers) www.illinois.edu/goto/twike Commute suck? Twike it; You'll like it! http://www.uiuc.edu/goto/twike
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Written on: 06 April 2009 [14:11]
Yardonn registered since: 22.08.2007 Posts: 156	I am not so optimistic with the EV's. The problem is the price for each kWh out of the batteries. Without an dramatic decrease of these Costes (eather throug cheaper batteries or more cyles...), EV may be quite uneconomic for a long time. Because all these "you only need short range" is not so realistic. Ofcourse most of my way are below 50 km. But to often i can not recharge, so i need 100 km range... And i also have (~ once a month) longer ways than 100 km. So i practical need a good range... (no rental-stations near us...). But a propper battery-set would be uneconomical... For me the "problem" of the Twike is not the vehicle-cost (i would pay 16k € for is), but the cost of the propper Li-batteries (i would need the biggest configuration for over 16k€...). And after a limited amount of time (several years...) i would have to replace the batteries, no matter how less km i would have driven with is. This can lead to extremly high cost per km! And a signigficant dropp of batterieprices is not in sight, even worse, a growing demand because of more Hybirds or EV's may in combination with limited recources of Lithium lead to higher prices. So it is a game of batterie-prices versus oil-price. And i will not bet on how long ist will take until the scale swings in favour of Batterie-Energy. For now and quite some years EV's will still be a niche market, until EV's are reasonable cheaper than equal capable fuel-burners. Alleweder 4 http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car
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Written on: 07 April 2009 [00:38]
iamian registered since: 23.02.2009 Posts: 105	I agree... EVs are likely to remain a niche market for many years to come ... My bet is ~15 to ~20 years... with slowly growing numbers over that time frame. -------------- As for the batteries ... maybe ... maybe not. I know from tests I've done on my NiMH 2000 Model Year Honda Insight batteries that after 120,000 miles and 8+ years... they still have ~95% of the original capacity... I also know that the newer LSD NiMH not only have significantly more energy per kg than the old school ~10 year old batteries I have ... but the newer LSD NiMH cells also have thus far shown even better service life than the old school NiMH... I also know that the Original Insight and the HEV Civics at least up to 2008 year models did not have any method in the Battery Control Module ( BCM ) to balance the set of 120 cells of batteries in the battery pack... no matter how closely matched they were originally ... eventually they will begin to get out of balance with each other... it is a easy and cheap thing to fix ... maybe a once a year kind of maintenance item that could have been done with oil changes... but Honda will back charge a dealership $3,000 if they even open the battery module ... and if the customer opens it they void heir warranty ... so instead many people are just told that the battery was bad... when it wasn't bad at all... it just needed some maintenance once in a while. There are also several of the Rav4EVs still on the road with their original NiMH batteries 10+ years latter. When batteries are already lasting as long or longer than other very expensive parts of ICE vehicles .. like the engine ... the emissions system ... the transmission ... etc... and batteries keep improving much faster than ICEs are... at this rate it is only a matter of time. 2000 MT Honda Insight MIMA & FAS equipped ... PHEV in progress. Franken E-Bike 36V NiMH 600W Hub-Motor.
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Written on: 12 April 2009 [19:13]
ecoadmin Administrator Topic creator registered since: 20.07.2007 Posts: 504	Hello all, Special Hideho! for our new member MarcPeeterhans from Belgium! Like him I also drive the TWIKE Active every day to/from work and for activities outside work and it has been big fun all the way. For some (like me) the TWIKE is the perfect vehicle but I agree with other members here that it is not for everybody. The trend towards cleaner vehicles is clearly in the air though. Someone said: "I think Twike like vehicles should be an ultimate direction for vehicles to take...". True, thats why I often refer the TWIKE to as a visionary vehicle. Battery technology will very likely improve over the years, but we must invest in EVs, PHEV, REEVs etc now so that the technology can be improved and tested in a real life scenario. Battery life is also directly related with their handling and management. To increase the life of batteries, a smart BMS has to be at work in the car, making sure the battery is used within its limitations whenever possible. the big Auto manufacturers have sold them the idea of the "open road" and being able to "fly" down that road at 65, 70, 80 mph for 300 miles before refueling. A very true statement. When I drive the TWIKE at road legal speed (sometimes even a few mph faster), I still get overtaken. Often for absolutely no reason as the next traffic light is just ahead! A similar behaviour can be experienced when accelerating after a stop. Even when speeding up relatively sporty, some cannot resist...Both cases are in my opinion clearly a consequence of the sold idea above. The gain in time is almost zero, the risk for others increases exponentially. We must learn to downsize. REDUCE, Reuse, Recycle... To drive comfortably and safe from a to B we do not need 3000ccm engines... ecocarforum.com - Green Car Network
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Written on: 21 April 2009 [15:01]
Yardonn registered since: 22.08.2007 Posts: 156	ecoadmin wrote: We must learn to downsize. REDUCE, Reuse, Recycle... To drive comfortably and safe from a to B we do not need 3000ccm engines... The majority is not willing to downsize. Their desire for Speed, Power, Compfort and safety is only limited by the amount of money they are able to spend for their precious cars. When talking, green is very popular. When deciding, going green has a very low priority. Average Horsepower per car is increasing, even though more frequent traffic jams and Speedlimits here in Germany make it most of the time impossible to use the power. The only technolie that will be acceped widely will be a technologie that saves money, but will not force people to downsize. Otherwise most people will only downsize, when a lack of Money forces them to do so. Of course, some people are different. But we are a small minority, and the majority is not willing to learn from us. Alleweder 4 http://www.akkurad.com allmost full weather protection for one person at 0 - 1.5 kWh / 100 km CityEl as secondary E-Car
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Written on: 04 May 2009 [13:12]
macHVD registered since: 12.07.2008 Posts: 5	indeed, only money will "convince" people to downsize there transportation means. [This article was edited 1 times, at last 04.05.2009 at 13:36.]
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